The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
- Start date
Welcome to your religion of one person. So you're the only correct person for 2000 years.
dwight92070
Well-known member
No, with you, that makes two.Welcome to your religion of one person. So you're the only correct person for 2000 years.
Behold
Well-known member
To understand the Trinity, you have to understand that Jesus was Pre-incarnate as the "Word".
Who is that one? John 1.. "and the WORD was God".
Notice the verse does not say the "Father" was God", and certainly John knew the distinction.
So, let me simplify, and see if you can get it.., if you are "Trinity stumped".
Who is the "WORD"< who isn't The "Father"..?
Its this One.
Genesis... "Let US... .make man.. in OUR Image.".
See that "our"?
That is Father God and "the Word made flesh" who "was God",, in John 1.
Now, notice........Pre-incarnate JESUS< is the WORD.. and God the Father.. SPOKE creation.. into Existence.
God SAID... "let there be".....and Pre-incarnate JESUS......is the WORD...
God spoke words of creation, and Jesus is that which He spoke that is the power of creation.
I'll prove it.
Just read John 1:10, and start with the KJV... and see who CREATED "the WORLD".. and then just reference back to what i just taught you., Reader.
Who is that one? John 1.. "and the WORD was God".
Notice the verse does not say the "Father" was God", and certainly John knew the distinction.
So, let me simplify, and see if you can get it.., if you are "Trinity stumped".
Who is the "WORD"< who isn't The "Father"..?
Its this One.
Genesis... "Let US... .make man.. in OUR Image.".
See that "our"?
That is Father God and "the Word made flesh" who "was God",, in John 1.
Now, notice........Pre-incarnate JESUS< is the WORD.. and God the Father.. SPOKE creation.. into Existence.
God SAID... "let there be".....and Pre-incarnate JESUS......is the WORD...
God spoke words of creation, and Jesus is that which He spoke that is the power of creation.
I'll prove it.
Just read John 1:10, and start with the KJV... and see who CREATED "the WORLD".. and then just reference back to what i just taught you., Reader.
101G
Well-known member
(smile), maybe...... look at the evidence by scripture, and compare and see if what 101G believes pass the test, and without mystery. everything 101G states has pass the test, ...... according to scriptures.Welcome to your religion of one person. So you're the only correct person for 2000 years.
now consider this. what if the trinity has been a two-thousand-year-old lie that has deceived many. is this not what the seventh seal warns us about? spiritual deception.
'as said, 101G will put "diversified oneness" up against any doctrine out there and the bible will confirm it.
101G.
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101G
Well-known member
101G disagree, because the Word in John 1:1 who is God is the one who "MADE ALL THINGS" in verse 3. but here is where your statement dies at. for the same one person in Jogn 1:1 who is God that MADE ALL THINGS, verse 3 is the same exact person in Isaiah 44:24 who "MADE ALL THINGS". if not then you have two creators, which is anti-bible.
and as for, Genesis... "Let US... .make man.. in OUR Image.". it's the same one person, and no, or any pre-incarnate ... nothing. for the Lord Jesus himself said God is a HE, yes only one person. that that eliminates any pre-NOTHING.
the only thing that was "pre" or was to come, is in Ordinal designation as the Last. do you understand the H259 ECHAD in Ordinal designation? If not just ask.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
The First and the Last. The Beginning and the End. the Alpha and the Omega. the Root and the Offspring. these titles, are they the same person?
A. the Father "AND" the Son?
B. the Father "WITH" the Son
C. the Father "WHO" is the Son
D. all the above
answer, D. the same one person.
101G.
A. the Father "AND" the Son?
B. the Father "WITH" the Son
C. the Father "WHO" is the Son
D. all the above
answer, D. the same one person.
101G.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Jesus didn't go around saying to everyone "I am the Messiah, I am the Messiah", although He did reveal this to 2 people - the Samaritan woman at the well and the High Priest at His trial before His crucifixion. But why did He not bluntly tell everyone? The answer is quite obvious in Mat. 16:17. Because He wanted His Father to reveal this to people who looked at the evidence, then exercised their faith, and concluded "Jesus IS the Messiah".
By the way, the evidence was and is voluminous, so it really doesn't (and didn't) take a large amount of faith to believe this:
Walking on water
Commanding the wind and the water to hush and be still
Feeding ten to fifteen thousand people with a few fish and a few loaves
Turning water into about 180 gallons of wine.
Raising the dead
Healing the blind, the lame, the lepers, the sick
Casting out demons, in some cases from those who had thousands in them, like the violent, crazy man who lived in the tombs. The demons identified themselves as "Legion"
Etc.
Critics will say, "Oh He only did those things by the power of the Holy Spirit - but His disciples could also do all those things by the same power."
Hogwash! Yes, His disciples did SOME (relatively FEW) of those things, but ONLY because HE HIMSELF gave them the power and authority to do so. Aside from Peter walking on water for a few seconds (because Jesus commanded him to), no other believer in the history of man has done that. Nor has any believer successfully commanded a storm to cease, or changed 180 gallons of water into wine, or fed 15,000 people with a few loaves and a few fish.
But just as Jesus wanted them (and us) to use our faith to believe He was and is the Messiah, even so He wants us to use our faith to believe that He was and is God. So He didn't go around saying: "I am God, I am God".
Also He was not an arrogant blowhard, tooting His own horn. Rather He was humble and meek and yet, He was God in the flesh. John 1:1, 14. There is ample evidence that Jesus is God - we need to humble ourselves and acknowledge it.
But this is a stumbling block for arrogant intellectuals who think they can "prove" that Jesus is not God. Rather than accepting the simple truth of scripture, they want to display their vast intelligence and status as a Bible "scholar" or a Bible "teacher", and thereby gaining the approval and accolades of men.
One common characteristic that I see with those who do not want to acknowledge that Jesus is God - is pride. On the other hand, with those who acknowledge that He is God, I see humility. Obviously there will be exceptions, but that's what I have observed.
By the way, the evidence was and is voluminous, so it really doesn't (and didn't) take a large amount of faith to believe this:
Walking on water
Commanding the wind and the water to hush and be still
Feeding ten to fifteen thousand people with a few fish and a few loaves
Turning water into about 180 gallons of wine.
Raising the dead
Healing the blind, the lame, the lepers, the sick
Casting out demons, in some cases from those who had thousands in them, like the violent, crazy man who lived in the tombs. The demons identified themselves as "Legion"
Etc.
Critics will say, "Oh He only did those things by the power of the Holy Spirit - but His disciples could also do all those things by the same power."
Hogwash! Yes, His disciples did SOME (relatively FEW) of those things, but ONLY because HE HIMSELF gave them the power and authority to do so. Aside from Peter walking on water for a few seconds (because Jesus commanded him to), no other believer in the history of man has done that. Nor has any believer successfully commanded a storm to cease, or changed 180 gallons of water into wine, or fed 15,000 people with a few loaves and a few fish.
But just as Jesus wanted them (and us) to use our faith to believe He was and is the Messiah, even so He wants us to use our faith to believe that He was and is God. So He didn't go around saying: "I am God, I am God".
Also He was not an arrogant blowhard, tooting His own horn. Rather He was humble and meek and yet, He was God in the flesh. John 1:1, 14. There is ample evidence that Jesus is God - we need to humble ourselves and acknowledge it.
But this is a stumbling block for arrogant intellectuals who think they can "prove" that Jesus is not God. Rather than accepting the simple truth of scripture, they want to display their vast intelligence and status as a Bible "scholar" or a Bible "teacher", and thereby gaining the approval and accolades of men.
One common characteristic that I see with those who do not want to acknowledge that Jesus is God - is pride. On the other hand, with those who acknowledge that He is God, I see humility. Obviously there will be exceptions, but that's what I have observed.
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where do we go to challenge an administrator's claim that That Bowlegged Cockroaches performing home construction is off topic?I hope you two realize That Bowlegged Cockroaches performing home construction is off topic.
It's a long process. First you have to start with a psychological evaluation. After that depending on how serious a declined in comprehension Is discovered and how long of a treatment period will be necessary. Then we can discuss it.
After that we'll send it to our review board.
Hope this helps!
When Jesus was finally recognized as the Uncreated Divine Word of God Person who added human nature to Himself.
Hello Aeliana:Can you explain that in a little more detail? I'd love to hear it. I found this online and it goes into great detail.
In What Sense Did Jesus Empty Himself? (Kenosis, Condescension of Christ)
In the second chapter of the letter to the Philippians the Apostle Paul made the following statement about Christ. Have this attitude in yourselves which waswww.blueletterbible.org
I just wanted you to know that this article from the Blue Letter Bible by the late Don Stewart teaches the heresy of "kenoticism." I was reluctant to classify it as "functional" or "ontological," I mostly just want to refer to it as the heresy of "evangelical kenotic Christology" because it is a sort of cafeteria heresy...the average evangelical "scholar" just picks the things he likes from both "functional" and "ontological" heresy not even attempting to try to make sense. The kenotic heresy Stewart teaches is basically ubiquitous among evangelicals these days and the amazing thing is that most evangelicals who teach this heresy are unaware of it and believe they are actually teaching the historic Christian faith. This heretical Christology is also completely incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. If someone says something about "God's relative attributes" run...God has no such thing except in ontological kenotic (heretical) Christology. For example:
God does not have "relative" and "essential" attributes...God IS what God IS. And God IS always what God IS, otherwise God IS not God. God's attributes are not superpowers that he uses like Superman uses superhuman strength and x-ray vision. God IS what we call the divine attributes, this IS what God IS, this is how God exists, these are not powers that are "used." God IS all knowing (omniscient), all powerful (omnipotent), everywhere present (omnipresent). The first ontological kenotocist, Gottfried Thomasius, tried to put forth a distinction in what he called the "relative" and "essential" attributes of God saying that the "omni" attributes were relative to man and that God did not need them to be God. Thus he attempted to change the nature of God without changing the nature of God (no one was fooled...except apparently evangelicals in the 20th century). The KJV, NKJV, MKJV, all translate the word "kenoo" (from Phil. 2.7, this is where all the "kenosis" stuff comes from) as: that is, (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify: - make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.--(Strongs G2758) This is the correct translation in this passage.
Phil. 2:5 -8 does not say the Son "gave up" anything, quite the contrary, it does say he continued to be God but made Himself of no reputation by taking the form of a servant and beginning to exist as a human...and "being found in fashion as a man." I don't know if you are aware of this so I wanted to point it out to you and to anyone else who may have read the article.
TheLayman
dwight92070
Well-known member
If God thought that was important, He would have told us. Just accept the scriptural fact that He emptied Himself of some things (privileges or powers, we don't know exactly what), that He had before He came down to the earth.
101G
Well-known member
he did tell us, scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
No Reputation? it's the Greek term,
G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756
so, we have the scripture, now what about that question, "did the Son of God come from heaven, or came out of Mary?" your answer please.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
it's amazing how Christians say they follow the Lord Jesus, but yet believe man over God. Christians believe what men say instead of God. example,
www.blueletterbible.org
if people READ their bible with the Holy Spirit and learn the difference between "TOOK PART" vs "PARTAKE" then they would know the Lord Jesus Nature. my God how hard is it?
101G.
In What Sense Did Jesus Empty Himself? (Kenosis, Condescension of Christ)
In the second chapter of the letter to the Philippians the Apostle Paul made the following statement about Christ. Have this attitude in yourselves which was
if people READ their bible with the Holy Spirit and learn the difference between "TOOK PART" vs "PARTAKE" then they would know the Lord Jesus Nature. my God how hard is it?
101G.
I've not checked into the issues of kenosis. The problem I see with the rejection of kenosis is that the rejection seems to be based on definitions of godhood such as omniscience and omnipotence. God is God apart from definitions we have for godhoodness. I shared an example of a person controlling a robot. This is what I shared
Thus the incarnation of the Son of God is not some contradiction of godhood even if Jesus Christ was limited in someway of his divinity. I would no use an avatar as representative of Christ's incarnation. But I can use the example of a person controlling a robot while using the robot's eyes and hearing ability. The person can be doing activity through that robot -- perhaps as a soldier robot in the battlefield. He could look and listen for enemies around him. He may also enter a building and have some protection from enemies. Yet, if the enemy kills the robot, the person who controlled the robot is still living and seeing and hearing things. The robot did not limit who that person is. That person was no less his original self just because the robot did not have a smell/scent detection.
I should add that my thought is that the Son of God can become incarnate because God created everything and knows how to work through creation to do what he needs to do. I'm happy to the degree that people accept the basic truth of the divinity of Christ in the Godhead without being too concerned how this is envisioned. I suppose someone may contribute a reason for me to be concerned, but I lack that concern thus far.
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dwight92070
Well-known member
I don't remember signing up to be in your class. You always assume that you are the teacher and we are your students. Try a little humility. The answer is BOTH.
101G
Well-known member
ERROR this is why 101G teaches, and many others are students. Listen. 1. the Son of God came out of Mary. supportive scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
that .... "THING" the Body is BORN, FLESH, BONE, and BLOOD, that .... "THING" came out of Mary.
2. the Son of Man is not born but given from heaven. John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." the son of man came from Heaven. please learn the difference. for the BODY takes on the Identity of the spirit that is in it. Oh my this is just too easy. some things are just basic bible study.... Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
if people just read their bibles.
101G
