The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
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Runningman
Well-known member
Biggest weakness of your argument is you don't have anything to prove Jesus pre-existed. The reason these discussions and debates are circular is because you're still beginning the question based on something circumstantial Jesus said, but then when you look at all of scripture Jesus is no where to be found in the Old Testament. Not a single peep from Jesus or a pre-incarnate Son or Word.
Runningman
Well-known member
Provided Jesus doesn't exist in the Old Testament, yes I have a very powerful argument. I can cite all of the prophecies concerning Jesus that were yet to be fulfilled at the time of their writing. They all require Jesus to be a human messiah who was made the messiah and chosen as the messiah. The Scriptures are very clear about that. Arguing for the pre-existence of Jesus is going to be an uphill battle for you. So far you have nothing.
Proof Jesus wasn't chosen until after he was already a human, not chosen before hand.
Matthew 12
15But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16And charged them that they should not make him known: 17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Runningman
Well-known member
San an angel is God? What are you saying exactly.
You might want to change your hearing aid batteries. There was not just a peep but a full on conversation from the Preincarnate Word of God in the OT.
- 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
- 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,
This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a thing (a word) or even an angel. He is God.
the problem is that you are looking for the name "Jesus" to be found. No one may even disagree with that. You just cannot follow nuance and therefore can only do a word search on the OT rather than a thematic search. If you were at least a modalist, you would acknowledge that God can interact and even be among humanity according to his will. You cannot even do that much. So you wish to testify against scripture that has been abundantly shared.
Runningman
Well-known member
So you have not provided anything about a pre-incarnate Jesus still. Actually, I recall you using this debunked argument. In both of those examples, you took the liberty to change the Bible and add capitalization to the word "word" to help bolster your strange dogma. I have never seen any commentary agree with you either. Furthermore, the "word of God" that came to them refers to God in the third-person perspective which would mean if the "word of God" was a real person in these verses then it did not identify itself as God. You've only provided a powerful argument against the deity of Jesus by quoting those.
Runningman
Well-known member
The name Jesus was given to him when he was born. Under other names and titles that people apply to Jesus, he can't be found in the Old Testament doing anything or saying anything. One may say "Oh, but Jesus is YHWH, the I AM, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc" but all of that can be debunked. There are many examples of Jesus not being the same person as God in the Old Testament. You have a very weak argument.
Johann
Well-known member
Taught by Justin Johnson on Sunday, May 7th, 2006.
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Description:
The Scriptural truth about the deity of Christ. The evidence for the deity of Christ does not come from historical consensus or scholarly approval, but from the Word of God. The Bible clearly portrays Jesus as God. Learn how we can know, without a doubt, the truth about Jesus and why historical arguments for or against us can never make a case.
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There are some who think that Jesus was a normal man who was later given the titles of Godhood. Another similar doctrine says that Jesus was always God but did not know it until he was older. Both deny that Jesus inhabited his deity attributes when he was yet a child on earth. Both of these positions are wrong.
Jesus was born and grew with divine wisdom and understanding. During Jesus’ childhood he ‘grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom’ (Luk 2:40). It wasn’t that he gained wisdom. He was already filled with it.
This divine wisdom would be explained later as greater than Solomon’s wisdom.
“… she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.” – Luke 11:31
When Jesus was only twelve the doctors of the temple in Jerusalem were ‘astonished at his understanding and his answers’ (Luke 2:47). How did a child possess such wisdom? It was because this child was God in the flesh.
Unlike any other man born of a woman Jesus could declare that his Father was God making himself equal with God.
“But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” – John 5:17-18
In the temple at Jerusalem he was merely twelve years old and had full knowledge of the will of his Father. It was his mother who was ignorant.
“And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. ” – Luke 2:49
Indeed there was something unique about this child. This child was once the babe who was miraculously conceived years earlier and of whom the angel predetermined his name to be ‘Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us’ (Mat 1:23).
There can be no doubt that Jesus, even as a child, was the fulness of the Godhead in the likeness of a man. Over the next three decades this God child would grow to be the God man in the divine wisdom that he had all along (Luke 2:52, John 17:5).
Jesus, the God-Child
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J.
I corrected you on your false statement:
You can rant all you want to save face but the damage has been done. It's time for you to face reality that unitarianism is a judaizing heresy.
MTMattie
Active member
Johann
Well-known member
Still ignoring the fact
John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
That means he was pre-existent, eternal and God
BTW
seeing as
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
men were chosen in him before the foundation of the world
he was chosen before the foundation of the earth
also
Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Your doctrine is replete with errors and contrary to scripture
Runningman
Well-known member
Actually, pretty pathetic you changed the bible to make it support your false doctrines. I can accept if we disagree and tolerate all of your heresies, but just changing the Scripture to suit your beliefs is disgustingly dishonest. Thank you for showing your true colors at least. That's noted.
Runningman
Well-known member
No idea what you're talking about. Where does the Bible say God left heaven to come to earth in flesh?
But the one who spoke from heaven was God, also known as the Father. Maybe you're thinking of Jesus as being God in the flesh, but no that's false.
Runningman
Well-known member
You're ignoring the fact that Jesus could not have pre-existed as the messiah since he was chosen by God after he was already a man.
MTMattie
Active member
But the one who became Jesus, from the Godhead was never called the Messiah. The messiah has been mentioned through out the OT.
It was the fulfillment of that prophesy and that fulfillment happened when the part of the Godhead became flesh and Jesus was not chosen... it was prophesied by the angel in both Mathew 1 when Joseph was told...... "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
It was all part of the plan from eternity past and through these 6000 plus year we see things playing out as they were intended.
Affinity
Member
Jesus’ name is different from any other name. The angel told Joseph the reason when he spoke to him and gave him that name: “And she shall bring forth a Son and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins” Matthew 1:21
Jesus has an exclusive name because the purpose of that name was to stamp forever upon His personality the uniqueness of His mission. What was His mission? Jesus means “Jehovah Saves.” What was the uniqueness about Jesus? He was the one who would come into the world to be the Savior of lost mankind.
That is why He was called Jesus. Exclusively, one of a kind. There never has been, nor will there ever be anyone who can do what Jesus came to do.
Jesus has an exclusive name because the purpose of that name was to stamp forever upon His personality the uniqueness of His mission. What was His mission? Jesus means “Jehovah Saves.” What was the uniqueness about Jesus? He was the one who would come into the world to be the Savior of lost mankind.
That is why He was called Jesus. Exclusively, one of a kind. There never has been, nor will there ever be anyone who can do what Jesus came to do.
Once again you chose to run away from the fact that the Bible nailed this pathetic challenge of yours to the wall:
You continue to rant all you want to save face but the damage to unitarianism has already been done. It's time for you to face reality that unitarianism is a judaizing heresy.
You have proven yourself to be the Runningman again as you run away from these Bible verses:
First you ignored the point
Still ignoring the fact
John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
That means he was pre-existent, eternal and God
then you ignored this
BTW
seeing as
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
men were chosen in him before the foundation of the world
he was chosen before the foundation of the earth
also
Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
so he was chosen long before your false claim and
Your doctrine is replete with errors and contrary to scripture
you really should give it up and get a biblical theology for a change
