The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Doug Brents]

Exodus 3:14,15 says "I AM WHO I AM" which is not the same thing as ending a sentence by simply saying "I am" such as how Jesus did in John 8:58. Actually, ending a sentence with a primary clause is not the way people normally speak nor the way Jesus normally spoke either. Provided the context of John 8, Jesus was simply saying he existed in prophecy before Abraham.

You are reading into the verse your personal interpretation, instead of letting Scripture speak to you. You are right, John 8:58 is not proper grammar in Greek, or in English, nor is it the way Jesus or John would naturally speak. This makes the wording very significant. And in Exo 3:14 you continue to focus on the first part of the verse where God says, "I am that I am." But when you look at the second half of verse 14, you see that God told Moses to tell Israel that "I AM has sent me." God is not saying that "I am that I am" is His name. He says, "I AM" is His name.

Here's a question, since you say "Jesus was indeed the servant of God (while He was HUMAN)" then is Jesus still a human right now?

Many people believe that He is, but I do not. I believe that when He ascended back into Heaven He returned to being the Spirit that He started as. Now, it is entirely possible that He has a new (physical or otherwise) body, just as we will have a new body after the resurrection (1 Cor 15:20-53), but I do not believe that Jesus is still human right now. He is back to being the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God He was before He was incarnate.

 

[amazing grace]

None of those passages tell us that God cannot take on a human form. They tell us that God is not a Fallen, broken, sinful being. They tell us He cannot lie, or be deceitful, or sin in any way. But they do not contradict John 1:14 which tells us that the Logos of God (which is God) took on flesh and became a man while still retaining His deity.

Why would Almighty God WANT to become a human being? Why would an Almight God NEED to become a human being?
Why? And then why LIE about it? Why not come right out and teach it plainly and clearly?
No, John 1:14 does not say 'the logos of God (which is God) took on flesh and became a man while still retaining his deity.'
Nothing close to what John 1:14 says.

I'll stick with the clear plain scripture in which God says he is not a man.

This is mostly correct. The more proper way of understanding that phrase is, "I exist because I exist." God is, period. There is no qualifier needed for Him as there is with EVERYTHING else. I might say, "I am ... (hungry, tired, excited, etc.). But God simply says, "I AM!", with no qualifier, no explanation, nothing else needed: He JUST IS!

Okay, I'll go with ---- I exist because I exist......God is, period - basically the same thing I said anyway.
NOW, why would a self existent God become a 'dependent human being'?

And that is what Jesus was saying when talking to the Pharisees: "Before Abraham was (past tense), I AM (present tense)". And this refers directly back to what God said from the burning bush in Exo 3.

No, Jesus is talking about being before Abraham in God's foreknowledge in the plan of humanity's redemption. The first prophecy concerning Jesus was Genesis 3:16 --- in that manner Jesus was before, prior to Abraham.
Also Jesus was before Abraham in God's promise to Abraham: I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because you have obeyed my voice. [Genesis 22:17,18] [see also Gal. 3:16]
BTW - The Angel of the LORD spoke from the midst of the burning bush as God's representative, God's agent. (3:2)

And who is Jesus said to be all through the NT? He is LORD, He is the I AM, He is God.

What is the name He gave to Moses that is His name forever? "I AM!" Not LORD. Not YHWH. Not Jehovah/Yahweh. But "I AM"

Who is Jesus all through the New Testament? The Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.

In most English Bible translations, "LORD" (in all caps) is used as a substitute for the personal name of God, YHWH, i.e. Yahweh. It is not a translation of a title, but a replacement for the sacred Hebrew tetragrammaton, which appeared over 6,800 times in the Old Testament.

God ALSO said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.'

If 'I AM' is God's name - why is it that He is not addressed anywhere as I AM but he is addressed as LORD, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah?

Yes, they are one in purpose. And they are one in power, and glory, and creativity, and spirit, and title (GOD).

And it is in that same way that Jesus and the Father are one. They are not the same being, but they are united just as a husband an wife are united (only infinitely more).

Nope, Jesus was not omnipotent ---- in fact EVERYTHING that Jesus had was given to him by his Father --- His Father being the one true God. Jesus is not equal to his Father, aka God - His Father, aka God is greater than all.

Indeed it was God working through Jesus (as a man), for Jesus emptied Himself of the independent use of His power and authority when He left Heaven and came to Earth as a man, a servant, having humbled Himself to the Father's will (Phil 2:7).

If Jesus is God and he never quit being God --- why would God have to work in God?
If Jesus is God and he never quits being God ---- what exactly did he empty? and how does God empty himself of what makes him God?
If Jesus is God and he never quits being God ---- how does God humble himself to do his own will?
Now, don't come yelling strawman, strawman because of my questions ..... they are legitimate questions because it is out of the mouths of trinitarians which say - Jesus is God and never quit being God but he emptied himself and humbled himself.

The authority and power did not change. The only change was the name given, and the understanding that God is one with three parts (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

That is not taught anywhere in scripture....a topic SOOOO important but never plainly taught by Jesus or the apostles.

We do indeed bear His image. But we are not God. Jesus doesn't just bear His image; He IS Him in the flesh.

Correct, neither is Jesus. An image of something is not the original.

John 1:3 says that the Logos/Word was responsible for the creation of everything that was created. The Word is not the words God spoke at creation. It is the mind of God, the reasoning power of God. Now read John 1:14. What did the Logos/Word do? The Logos took on flesh and dwelt among man. And what man was it? The man Jesus.

Yes, John 1:3 does say that the logos was responsible for the creation and it points us to the record in Genesis in which GOD SAID Let there be light and there was light.....And GOD SAID Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters....And it was so.
AND GOD SAID Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together.....And it was so. AND GOD SAID Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed and fruit trees bearing fruit.....And it was so..... God's powerful creative speech and God's word (dabar/logos) is a reflection of Him which draws on both Jewish and Greek ideas of God's creative power and wisdom being expressed through speech. This creative power through God's logos and God's wisdom became flesh in the only begotten Son from the Father. Jesus carried on the function of God's wisdom and God's logos.

John 1:3 says that NOTHING that was created was made without the Logos (Jesus), and that everything that was made was made through Him. Yes, the Church was made by/through Him, but so were the rocks, the trees, the birds, the powers, the principalities, and everything else visible and invisible in all of Creation.

Nope, John 1:3 refers to the Genesis creation in which God spoke creation into being - where nothing that was made was made without God speaking it into being.

Colossians is not referring to the Genesis creation in which God spoke light into being, the land formation into being, the formation of the seas into being, vegetation, trees, birds of the air, fish of the sea........ all created by what God spoke in Genesis.

The same way that the man is the head of the family even though the wife is one with him.

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God..... If you go and read the context it has nothing to do with the husband and wife being one...... but a custom of having one's head covered as a symbol of authority. So, Christ is the symbol of authority over man, the man is the symbol of authority over his wife and God is a symbol of authority over Christ.

This paragraph indicates an indoctrination and lack of personal study of Scripture. Study the Word of God, and stop reading, studying, and being isolated in humanistic/Satanic understandings. The triune nature of God is very clearly demonstrated throughout Scripture, both the OT and the NT. John paints the clearest picture of Jesus being God, but Paul, Matthew, Luke, and Peter, and the writer of Hebrew all indicate that Jesus is God in the writings God inspired them to write.

Yes, the authors of the scripture were inspired by God as to what to write.

<snip>
There are plenty of verses that teach eternal life, resurrection, to circumcise or not circumcise, how and in what manner to take communion, how the gifts of the spirit should be handled in the church, humility, love, forgiveness but not ONE teaching on a Triune God. That's a big red flag!!! It can't be taught because it's not there!

While all of this section is true, if you don't believe that Jesus is who He says He is then you don't receive any of the benefit of His sacrifice for you, and you won't be saved. You cannot be saved by Him if you don't trust that He is who He says He is, who Scripture says He is.

Well, thankfully I believe and trust that he is who he says he is and who scripture says he is.......a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God......I know that the Messiah is coming for who is called Christ.....I who speaks to you am he..... ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’, etc.

Is the Holy Spirit God? The Holy Spirit is clearly not the Father, right? But the Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4, 1 Cor 3:16). So we have two who are One (because God is One). Why is it so hard for you to admit that Jesus is also God?

Matt 28:19 and 2 Cor 13:14 both list the three as being on an equal footing: having one authority, and giving a united blessing.

John 1:1-3, 14 clearly states that Jesus is God, and that He was instrumental in the creation of everything that was made (indicating that He was not created).

God is Spirit and God is Holy therefore God is the Holy Spirit and God is the Father the only true God. The holy spirit can also refer to the gift of holy spirit which people receive when they repent and are baptized and born again of the Spirit.

Jesus is the exact representation, imprint of his Father, aka God ---- that is not equivalent to being his Father, aka God.

Simple...... because he isn't.

 

[Doug Brents]

Why would Almighty God WANT to become a human being? Why would an Almight God NEED to become a human being?
Why? And then why LIE about it? Why not come right out and teach it plainly and clearly?

Why would God want to become a human being? Because He loves us. Because He wants a relationship with us.
Why would God need to become a human being? Because He is just. He cannot just overlook sin. He cannot just sweep it under the rug and forgive without the price for sin being paid. Mankind is innately sinful because sin has entered the World and has spread to all mankind. It took God becoming a man to live a sinless life that would be unblemished as a pure sacrifice to pay the price (death) for the sin of all mankind. And it takes an infinite God to have the capacity to cover more than the sin of one other person.

No, John 1:14 does not say 'the logos of God (which is God) took on flesh and became a man while still retaining his deity.'
Nothing close to what John 1:14 says.

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
This is the same Word/Logos as was discussed in verses 1-3. Who was the Son? Jesus. Verses 15-18, and then 35-51 go on to tell us that Jesus is the man that the Logos became.

Okay, I'll go with ---- I exist because I exist......God is, period - basically the same thing I said anyway.
NOW, why would a self existent God become a 'dependent human being'?

See what was said above.

No, Jesus is talking about being before Abraham in God's foreknowledge in the plan of humanity's redemption.

That explanation ignores and/or contradicts other Scripture. Jesus did not just exist in God's foreknowledge, because everything that is was created by/through Him (John 1:3, the Word being Jesus according to John 1:14-51).

The first prophecy concerning Jesus was Genesis 3:16 --- in that manner Jesus was before, prior to Abraham.
Also Jesus was before Abraham in God's promise to Abraham: I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because you have obeyed my voice. [Genesis 22:17,18] [see also Gal. 3:16]
BTW - The Angel of the LORD spoke from the midst of the burning bush as God's representative, God's agent. (3:2)

Angels are created beings. They do not simply exist, therefore them saying that they are because they are would be incorrect. If it was an angel speaking, it was God speaking through the angel.

Who is Jesus all through the New Testament? The Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.

Lord (used 97 times), Son of God, Emmanuel (God with us), Alpha and Omega, The First and Last, The Beginning and the End, Great God and Savior.

Christ (the Anointed One), King of the Jews/Israel, King of Kings, Son of David, Messiah.
Lamb of God, The Light of the World, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Bread of Life, The Good Shepherd, The True Vine, The Door, The Resurrection and the Life.
Mediator, Redeemer, Holy One, Beloved Son, Creator, Head of the Church.

These are all titles, names, and descriptors given to Jesus in the NT.

If 'I AM' is God's name - why is it that He is not addressed anywhere as I AM but he is addressed as LORD, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah?

One of the biggest reasons, I believe, is because, even today, the Jews do not write His name or any of His titles in full. They write G-d, or L-rd, or other similar contractions. They wrote YHWH, which has no vowels in the Hebrew language, and therefore has no pronunciation so His title of Lord cannot be spoken.

Nope, Jesus was not omnipotent ---- in fact EVERYTHING that Jesus had was given to him by his Father --- His Father being the one true God. Jesus is not equal to his Father, aka God - His Father, aka God is greater than all.

Jesus was not omnipotent when He was a man. But He is not a man anymore. He is ascended back into Heaven.
Yes, He is submissive to the Father, just as a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But that does not make her lesser than him, nor does it make Jesus lesser than the Father.

If Jesus is God and he never quit being God --- why would God have to work in God?

God worked through Jesus, as a man, because He almost always works through human agency instead of doing things directly Himself. God had to become a man in the form of Jesus so that He could live a human life, live it sinlessly, and therefore provide a perfect sacrifice for sin (Heb 9:22).

If Jesus is God and he never quits being God ---- what exactly did he empty? and how does God empty himself of what makes him God?

He didn't empty Himself of what made Him God.
But He did empty Himself of His knowledge (He grew in knowledge, wisdom, etc.).
He did empty Himself of the independent use of His power (He did nothing through His own power, but did everything through the Holy Spirit).
He did empty Himself of His glory (He passed all of His own glory to the Father (John 7:18, 8:50, 54).

If Jesus is God and he never quits being God ---- how does God humble himself to do his own will?

Do you humble yourself to do your husband's will?

That is not taught anywhere in scripture....a topic SOOOO important but never plainly taught by Jesus or the apostles.

That demonstrates your blindness to Truth. a topic that is even more important.

Correct, neither is Jesus. An image of something is not the original.

Jesus is not just a man (made in the image of God), but He IS God, the source of the image. Jesus is the source of all life. Jesus is the source of all light.

Yes, John 1:3 does say that the logos was responsible for the creation and it points us to the record in Genesis in which GOD SAID Let there be light and there was light.....And GOD SAID Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters....And it was so.
AND GOD SAID Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together.....And it was so. AND GOD SAID Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed and fruit trees bearing fruit.....And it was so..... God's powerful creative speech and God's word (dabar/logos) is a reflection of Him which draws on both Jewish and Greek ideas of God's creative power and wisdom being expressed through speech. This creative power through God's logos and God's wisdom became flesh in the only begotten Son from the Father. Jesus carried on the function of God's wisdom and God's logos.

Now you are getting somewhere. What does John 1:1 say? "The Word was with God, and the Word WAS God."

Nope, John 1:3 refers to the Genesis creation in which God spoke creation into being - where nothing that was made was made without God speaking it into being.

And that part of God that spoke everything into being became a man (John 1:14) that we know as Jesus.

Colossians is not referring to the Genesis creation in which God spoke light into being, the land formation into being, the formation of the seas into being, vegetation, trees, birds of the air, fish of the sea........ all created by what God spoke in Genesis.

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God..... If you go and read the context it has nothing to do with the husband and wife being one...... but a custom of having one's head covered as a symbol of authority. So, Christ is the symbol of authority over man, the man is the symbol of authority over his wife and God is a symbol of authority over Christ.

Is God really just a symbol of authority? You need to rethink your whole doctrine on this, because it disagrees with a lot of Scripture.

Well, thankfully I believe and trust that he is who he says he is and who scripture says he is.......a man

If that is all that you believe Him to be, then you are lost. Because He said He was God (John 8:58). He is described in Scripture as being God (Isa 9:6, and many others).

God is Spirit and God is Holy therefore God is the Holy Spirit and God is the Father the only true God. The holy spirit can also refer to the gift of holy spirit which people receive when they repent and are baptized and born again of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father. They are two different beings.
Notice in Jesus' baptism that the Spirit came down as a dove, the Father spoke from Heaven (not from the dove), and Jesus was in the water.
Notice also that in Matt 28:19 and 2 Cor 13:14 talk about three different beings with the same authority and power.

Jesus is the exact representation, imprint of his Father, aka God ---- that is not equivalent to being his Father, aka God.

Yes, it is.

 

[Runningman]

So the passage refers to Jesus as God overall but you still reject it.

It says no such thing. Jesus is a Jewish man under the law. God is over all, not Jesus is overall.

 

[Doug Brents]

This is nonsensical. The seed of Abraham refers to human descendents of Abraham, of which Jesus shares in. Romans 9 does a good job of of hammering the point home that Jesus is human like the others, under the same laws, under the same covenants, under the same God.

Romans 9
1I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

The "translation?" of the Bible you are quoting leaves out a very important pair of words between "Christ" and "God" at the end of verse 5. Those words are "who is" (see below from Biblehub.com).
from
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

them [ proceeds ]
ὧν (hōn)
Personal / Relative Pronoun - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 3739: Who, which, what, that.

[the] human [descent]
σάρκα (sarka)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 4561: Flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

of Christ,
Χριστὸς (Christos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 5547: Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ. From chrio; Anointed One, i.e. The Messiah, an epithet of Jesus.

who
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

is
ὢν (ōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

God
Θεὸς (Theos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

over
ἐπὶ (epi)
Preposition
Strong's 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.

all,
πάντων (pantōn)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

 

[Runningman]

The "translation?" of the Bible you are quoting leaves out a very important pair of words between "Christ" and "God" at the end of verse 5. Those words are "who is" (see below from Biblehub.com).
from
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

them [ proceeds ]
ὧν (hōn)
Personal / Relative Pronoun - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 3739: Who, which, what, that.

[the] human [descent]
σάρκα (sarka)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 4561: Flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

of Christ,
Χριστὸς (Christos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 5547: Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ. From chrio; Anointed One, i.e. The Messiah, an epithet of Jesus.

who
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

is
ὢν (ōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

God
Θεὸς (Theos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

over
ἐπὶ (epi)
Preposition
Strong's 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.

all,
πάντων (pantōn)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

Contextually Christ isn't God in Romans 9:5 so your interpretation is unnatural sounding. In the context of Romans 9:1-5, Jesus is described an Israelite under the law and covenant, making him the same as everyone else in that regard, because they all have a God over them. Paul never once refers to Jesus as God in any of his writings. Actually, he opens every one of his letters with something to the effect of "Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" and he explicitly refers to the Father as the one God in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

The version I provided of Romans 9:5 is Biblically consistent and translated accurately. It's a pretty solid passage that affirms that Jesus isn't God.

 

[mikesw]

It says no such thing. Jesus is a Jewish man under the law. God is over all, not Jesus is overall.

deny, deny, deny.
You cannot prove your alternative view of scripture but you keep persisting. That is pointless unless you can build an argument to show your denial of the deity of Jesus has some convincing detail.

 

[Runningman]

deny, deny, deny.
You cannot prove your alternative view of scripture but you keep persisting. That is pointless unless you can build an argument to show your denial of the deity of Jesus has some convincing detail.

To be clear, you're asking me to prove that your beliefs are wrong. That is exactly what is happening here. Proving you wrong doesn't mean you will cease clinging to falsehoods. It doesn't mean your beliefs are valid just because no one can make you stop believing them. It's up to you. As for the Bible, it's perfectly clear what it says regarding the one and only God being the Father.

 

[Doug Brents]

Contextually Christ isn't God

Christ Jesus is God (as John 1:1-3, 14 states clearly),

in Romans 9:5 so your interpretation is unnatural sounding.

so any interpretation of Rom 9:5 that says He is not God is not only "unnatural sounding", but completely wrong.

In the context of Romans 9:1-5, Jesus is described an Israelite under the law and covenant, making him the same as everyone else in that regard, because they all have a God over them.

Jesus was indeed a man when He was living on Earth. But He was still God, because He started as God (creating everything) and never ceased to be God.

Paul never once refers to Jesus as God in any of his writings.

Wrong.

Actually, he opens every one of his letters with something to the effect of "Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" and he explicitly refers to the Father as the one God in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Read the whole of 1 Cor 8:6. Now compare with Acts 17:28. We exist through/because of God, and we exist through/because of Jesus.
Now read Rev 4:11 and compare it with Col 1:16-17. All things were created by/through God, and all things were created by/through Jesus.

The version I provided of Romans 9:5 is Biblically consistent and translated accurately. It's a pretty solid passage that affirms that Jesus isn't God.

What "translation" is it that you use, typically?

 

[amazing grace]

Why would God want to become a human being? Because He loves us. Because He wants a relationship with us.

Which is why He gave His only begotten Son.

Why would God need to become a human being? Because He is just. He cannot just overlook sin. He cannot just sweep it under the rug and forgive without the price for sin being paid. Mankind is innately sinful because sin has entered the World and has spread to all mankind. It took God becoming a man to live a sinless life that would be unblemished as a pure sacrifice to pay the price (death) for the sin of all mankind. And it takes an infinite God to have the capacity to cover more than the sin of one other person.

Yes, humanity is sinful because of Adam's disobedience so sin and death through sin entered the world, i.e. - the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
The human being, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, lived a sinless life, unblemished and pure and he paid the price for the sin of humanity through his obedience. [Romans 5].

Why would it take an infinite God to have the capacity to cover more than the sin of one other person when it only took one man to pass sin on to ALL humanity? Scripture doesn't teach what you are saying -

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
This is the same Word/Logos as was discussed in verses 1-3. Who was the Son? Jesus. Verses 15-18, and then 35-51 go on to tell us that Jesus is the man that the Logos became.

See what was said above.

The above does not explain why a self existent God would become a 'dependent human being?'
I know that the word became flesh as the only begotten Son from the Father, i.e. Jesus.
I also know that the 'only begotten from the Father' would not be God, because the Father is the only true God!!!!
The argument is the logos was in equality with God and not just qualitative. God in John 1:1c is a noun being used as an adjective, i.e. qualitative.

If what you say is true then why does scripture HIDE the fact that Jesus was God if he truly was God?

Why didn't Matthew, Mark, Luke have anything to say about Jesus being God?
Why didn't Jesus confront Peter with the fact that he was God when Peter confessed “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”?

That explanation ignores and/or contradicts other Scripture. Jesus did not just exist in God's foreknowledge, because everything that is was created by/through Him (John 1:3, the Word being Jesus according to John 1:14-51).

The explanation of Jesus being in God's foreknowledge ignores or contradicts scripture?
You go ahead and just keep repeating yourself ---

Angels are created beings. They do not simply exist, therefore them saying that they are because they are would be incorrect. If it was an angel speaking, it was God speaking through the angel.

LOL, I know angels are created beings. I didn't say that they simply existed.
Duh..... I said the Angel of the LORD was acting as God's representative, God's agent.

Lord (used 97 times), Son of God, Emmanuel (God with us), Alpha and Omega, The First and Last, The Beginning and the End, Great God and Savior.

Christ (the Anointed One), King of the Jews/Israel, King of Kings, Son of David, Messiah.
Lamb of God, The Light of the World, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Bread of Life, The Good Shepherd, The True Vine, The Door, The Resurrection and the Life. Mediator, Redeemer, Holy One, Beloved Son, Creator, Head of the Church.

These are all titles, names, and descriptors given to Jesus in the NT.

Yes, those titles, names, and descriptors were given to Jesus in the NT. And SOOOO - your point is?

*Great God and Savior is questionable

One of the biggest reasons, I believe, is because, even today, the Jews do not write His name or any of His titles in full. They write G-d, or L-rd, or other similar contractions. They wrote YHWH, which has no vowels in the Hebrew language, and therefore has no pronunciation so His title of Lord cannot be spoken.

Well, the transcribers of the Hebrew saw fit to capitalize LORD so that readers would recognize when God's personal name was being used and it is used approximately 6,800 times in reference to Almighty God. I AM describes who God is - the self existent one but his personal name covenant name is YHWH - Yahweh - LORD.

Jesus was not omnipotent when He was a man. But He is not a man anymore. He is ascended back into Heaven.
Yes, He is submissive to the Father, just as a wife is to be submissive to her husband. But that does not make her lesser than him, nor does it make Jesus lesser than the Father.

Jesus never was omnipotent......Yes, I know he has ascended into heaven and is at the right hand of the Father exalted.
for the Father is greater than I. ..... Did Jesus lie?
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, ....... Did Jesus lie?

If Jesus is God - he cannot be submissive to himself.

God worked through Jesus, as a man, because He almost always works through human agency instead of doing things directly Himself. God had to become a man in the form of Jesus so that He could live a human life, live it sinlessly, and therefore provide a perfect sacrifice for sin (Heb 9:22).

But if Jesus never quits being God then he is God even as a man!!!! Do you not get that?
Yes, God does work through human agents - REAL HUMAN AGENTS - his prophets were real human agents NOT HALF GOD AND HALF MAN - 100%God100%man - a God man.

God did not have to become a man to live a human life ---- it took a 100% human being like Adam, like us, to provide a sacrifice for sin. God did not owe the debt of humanity's sin to himself. It was humanity who owed God so it had to be a 100% human being that paid that debt to God.
And nowhere in scripture does it tell us that God paid the penalty for our sins.

He didn't empty Himself of what made Him God.
But He did empty Himself of His knowledge (He grew in knowledge, wisdom, etc.).
He did empty Himself of the independent use of His power (He did nothing through His own power, but did everything through the Holy Spirit).
He did empty Himself of His glory (He passed all of His own glory to the Father (John 7:18, 8:50, 54).
Do you humble yourself to do your husband's will?

Well, he was no longer immortal becoming a mortal being; he was no longer omnipotent (all powerful); omniscient (all knowing); omnipresent (everywhere present); omnibenevolent (all good) --- a supreme being with infinite knowledge, authority, and presence...... so then he didn't become human while remaining God - impossibility!
Without His supreme attributes he would no longer be God.

Humbling myself to the will of my husband's has nothing to do with answering:
If Jesus is God and never quits being God ----- HOW GOD HUMBLES HIMSELF TO DO HIS OWN WILL?

That demonstrates your blindness to Truth. a topic that is even more important.

A topic that is not taught. God is one with three parts Father, Son and Holy Spirit ---

Jesus is not just a man (made in the image of God), but He IS God, the source of the image. Jesus is the source of all life. Jesus is the source of all light.

No, Jesus is the brightness of his glory, (apaugasma) the reflected brightness and the express image (charaktēr the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile) of his person........ (Hebrews 1:3)

Jesus reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the image, the exact expression, precise reproduction of God's person.

Now you are getting somewhere. What does John 1:1 say? "The Word was with God, and the Word WAS God."

And that part of God that spoke everything into being became a man (John 1:14) that we know as Jesus.

<snip>
Yes, John 1:3 does say that the logos was responsible for the creation and it points us to the record in Genesis in which GOD SAID Let there be light and there was light.....And GOD SAID Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters....And it was so.
AND GOD SAID Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together.....And it was so. AND GOD SAID Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed and fruit trees bearing fruit.....And it was so..... God's powerful creative speech and God's word (dabar/logos) is a reflection of Him which draws on both Jewish and Greek ideas of God's creative power and wisdom being expressed through speech. This creative power through God's logos and God's wisdom became flesh in the only begotten Son from the Father. Jesus carried on the function of God's wisdom and God's logos.

It's what I have been saying all along ^^^^^^^^^

Is God really just a symbol of authority? You need to rethink your whole doctrine on this, because it disagrees with a lot of Scripture.

I have no idea what this was relevant to?

If that is all that you believe Him to be, then you are lost. Because He said He was God (John 8:58). He is described in Scripture as being God (Isa 9:6, and many others).

<snip>
Well, thankfully I believe and trust that he is who he says he is and who scripture says he is.......a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God......I know that the Messiah is coming for who is called Christ.....I who speaks to you am he..... ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’, etc.
<snip>

The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father. They are two different beings.
Notice in Jesus' baptism that the Spirit came down as a dove, the Father spoke from Heaven (not from the dove), and Jesus was in the water.
Notice also that in Matt 28:19 and 2 Cor 13:14 talk about three different beings with the same authority and power.

Yes, Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism to empower him for his ministry. Yes, God spoke from heaven as He poured out the holy spirit in the form of a dove - a visual for John the Baptist......And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

Yes, it is.

An imprint, an image is not the same as the original. Your image looking back at you from a mirror is NOT YOU - it is an image of you. Lincoln is an image, an imprint on a penny - the image is not Lincoln.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, humanity is sinful because of Adam's disobedience so sin and death through sin entered the world, i.e. - the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
The human being, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, lived a sinless life, unblemished and pure and he paid the price for the sin of humanity through his obedience. [Romans 5].

None of that is up for debate. We are discussing the deity of Jesus: the fact that Jesus is God.

Why would it take an infinite God to have the capacity to cover more than the sin of one other person when it only took one man to pass sin on to ALL humanity? Scripture doesn't teach what you are saying -

Sin entered the world, and sin spread to all mankind. Why? Because all have sinned (Rom 5:12). Jesus was a man, but sin did not spread to Him because He DID NOT sin.

The above does not explain why a self existent God would become a 'dependent human being?'
I know that the word became flesh as the only begotten Son from the Father, i.e. Jesus.

So you know and admit that the Word became flesh as the Son (Jesus). Good. That is one hurdle down.
Now, is the Word God? John 1:1 says that the Word was with God and the Word was God. Will you admit that Scripture says that explicitly?

I also know that the 'only begotten from the Father' would not be God, because the Father is the only true God!!!!
The argument is the logos was in equality with God and not just qualitative. God in John 1:1c is a noun being used as an adjective, i.e. qualitative.

If the Logos was God, in any capacity, then Jesus is also God (because the Logos became the man Jesus, as you admitted above).

If what you say is true then why does scripture HIDE the fact that Jesus was God if he truly was God?

It does not hide that fact. It is very clear and explicit about it.

Why didn't Matthew, Mark, Luke have anything to say about Jesus being God?

They did:
Matthew
Matt 1:23
Matt 28:19
Luke
Luke 7:49
Mark
Mark 2:5-7
John
John 1:1
John 20:28
Paul
Rom. 9:5
Col. 2:9
Phil. 2:6
the author of Hebrews
Heb 1:3
Heb 1:8
Peter
2 Pet. 1:1
James
James 2:1

The explanation of Jesus being in God's foreknowledge ignores or contradicts scripture?
You go ahead and just keep repeating yourself ---

Thank you, I will indeed continue to shine the Light of truth in the face of your dark falsehoods.

LOL, I know angels are created beings. I didn't say that they simply existed.
Duh..... I said the Angel of the LORD was acting as God's representative, God's agent.

Sweetheart, it was God speaking to Moses (whether in person or through an angel is immaterial). Quit bickering over immaterial, inconsequential things.

Yes, those titles, names, and descriptors were given to Jesus in the NT. And SOOOO - your point is?

The fact that those titles, most of which indicate that He is God, are applied to Jesus means that He is God.

Well, the transcribers of the Hebrew saw fit to capitalize LORD so that readers would recognize when God's personal name was being used and it is used approximately 6,800 times in reference to Almighty God. I AM describes who God is - the self existent one but his personal name covenant name is YHWH - Yahweh - LORD.

Thank you for that opinion. Next.

Jesus never was omnipotent......Yes, I know he has ascended into heaven and is at the right hand of the Father exalted.

Yes, Jesus was with God (omnipresent) before Creation, and He was responsible for creating everything that was created (omnipotent), and He knew before Creation everything that would happen in creation (omniscient).

for the Father is greater than I. ..... Did Jesus lie?

No, Jesus humbled Himself to the will of the Father when He emptied Himself and left Heaven to become a man.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, ....... Did Jesus lie?

Again, no, Jesus did not lie. But that does not mean that He is not God. Keep trying. You may actually, eventually, run out of falsehoods and convince yourself that Jesus really is God like He said He is.

If Jesus is God - he cannot be submissive to himself.

"God" is not a descriptor of a single being. It is a title indicating authority and power, kind of like "the Crown". Both a king and queen wear the crown, and both fall under the title of "the Crown", but the king is not the same being as the queen; the two can talk to each other, argue with each other, etc. The queen is even submissive to the king even though her authority is the same as his.

But if Jesus never quits being God then he is God even as a man!!!! Do you not get that?

Yes, absolutely I get that. He was God and man at the same time. He was the King, Ruler, Creator, God, and at the same time was a lowly servant, a man, a mortal.

Yes, God does work through human agents - REAL HUMAN AGENTS - his prophets were real human agents NOT HALF GOD AND HALF MAN - 100%God100%man - a God man.

Most of His servants were indeed exclusively human agents. But one of His servants was Jesus, God in the flesh, God living with us, the equal of the Father.

Well, he was no longer immortal becoming a mortal being; he was no longer omnipotent (all powerful); omniscient (all knowing); omnipresent (everywhere present); omnibenevolent (all good) --- a supreme being with infinite knowledge, authority, and presence...... so then he didn't become human while remaining God - impossibility!
Without His supreme attributes he would no longer be God.

Is it possible for you to limit yourself to the point that you can play a game with your children and be on a level paying field with them? Sure it is. But when you do so, do you stop being their parent? Do you stop being their mother? NO!!!!!! Jesus didn't have to stop being God in order to empty Himself of many of His attributes.

Humbling myself to the will of my husband's has nothing to do with answering:
If Jesus is God and never quits being God ----- HOW GOD HUMBLES HIMSELF TO DO HIS OWN WILL?

Actually, it does. Jesus is not the Father, but both are God. You are not your husband, but both of you are still "a couple". A king is not the queen, but both are still "the Crown". Jesus, you, the queen can humble yourselves to the Father, your husband, the king and do his/His will, and not produce any kind of contradiction or problem.

Yes, Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism to empower him for his ministry. Yes, God spoke from heaven as He poured out the holy spirit in the form of a dove - a visual for John the Baptist......And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

An imprint, an image is not the same as the original. Your image looking back at you from a mirror is NOT YOU - it is an image of you. Lincoln is an image, an imprint on a penny - the image is not Lincoln.

You have now admitted that the Holy Spirit is God, but is not the Father. So you are admitting to a binity (two person) God. Since that is the case, why do you have such a hard time with the deity of Jesus and a trinity (three person) God? Why do you have such a hard time admitting that Jesus is God who left Heaven and took on the form of a man?

 

[amazing grace]

None of that is up for debate. We are discussing the deity of Jesus: the fact that Jesus is God.

But you brought it into the debate:

<snip>Why would God need to become a human being? Because He is just. He cannot just overlook sin. He cannot just sweep it under the rug and forgive without the price for sin being paid. Mankind is innately sinful because sin has entered the World and has spread to all mankind. It took God becoming a man to live a sinless life that would be unblemished as a pure sacrifice to pay the price (death) for the sin of all mankind. <snip>

Therefore the reply:

<snip>
Yes, humanity is sinful because of Adam's disobedience so sin and death through sin entered the world, i.e. - the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
The human being, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, lived a sinless life, unblemished and pure and he paid the price for the sin of humanity through his obedience. [Romans 5].

Why would it take an infinite God to have the capacity to cover more than the sin of one other person when it only took one man to pass sin on to ALL humanity? Scripture doesn't teach what you are saying - <snip>

Sin entered the world, and sin spread to all mankind. Why? Because all have sinned (Rom 5:12). Jesus was a man, but sin did not spread to Him because He DID NOT sin.

All men inherited the sin nature from Adam - the propensity to sin.
Sin did not spread to Jesus because of the manner in which he was conceived being created by the Holy Spirit the power of the Most High in the womb of Mary and not by sinful man.

So you know and admit that the Word became flesh as the Son (Jesus). Good. That is one hurdle down.
Now, is the Word God? John 1:1 says that the Word was with God and the Word was God. Will you admit that Scripture says that explicitly?

If the Logos was God, in any capacity, then Jesus is also God (because the Logos became the man Jesus, as you admitted above).

Correct, I have never denied John 1:14.
No, the word is not God in the sense of equality.

Yeah, the author of John says that the word was with God which doesn't make any sense if the word is equal to God ---- that would be God was with God and the word was God and God became flesh as the only Son from God the Father ..... nope doesn't work.

If the logos was God qualitatively, as in demonstrative of God's qualities then those qualities became flesh in the only Son from the Father.

<snip>
Thank you, I will indeed continue to shine the Light of truth in the face of your dark falsehoods.

You have one main go to scripture - the prologue of John and John 1:14. Then it seems Philippians 2 and Colossians 1 get honorable mention.

Sweetheart, it was God speaking to Moses (whether in person or through an angel is immaterial). Quit bickering over immaterial, inconsequential things.

The fact that those titles, most of which indicate that He is God, are applied to Jesus means that He is God.

For one thing I am not your 'sweetheart' and I know that is said in a condescending manner - if you have to resort to such - go ahead.

False.

Thank you for that opinion. Next.

Your welcome but it's not just my opinion.
Well, the transcribers of the Hebrew saw fit to capitalize LORD so that readers would recognize when God's personal name was being used and it is used approximately 6,800 times in reference to Almighty God. I AM describes who God is - the self existent one but his personal name covenant name is YHWH - Yahweh - LORD.

Yes, Jesus was with God (omnipresent) before Creation, and He was responsible for creating everything that was created (omnipotent), and He knew before Creation everything that would happen in creation (omniscient).

False.

No, Jesus humbled Himself to the will of the Father when He emptied Himself and left Heaven to become a man.

Jesus said - the Father is greater than I.
Logic 101: 1) The Father is God. 2) God is greater than I. 3) God is greater than the Son, i.e. Jesus. 4) Jesus isn't God.

Yeah, Yeah. Jesus being God humbled himself to the will of the Father who is the only true God when he emptied himself of all his supreme godly attributes at which point he is not God. ....... Pure and utter NONSENSE.

Again, no, Jesus did not lie. But that does not mean that He is not God. Keep trying. You may actually, eventually, run out of falsehoods and convince yourself that Jesus really is God like He said He is.

Jesus said - My Father is greater than all
Logic 101: 1) The Father is God. 2) God is greater than all. 3) God is greater than the Son, i.e. Jesus. 4) Jesus isn't God.

"God" is not a descriptor of a single being. It is a title indicating authority and power, kind of like "the Crown". Both a king and queen wear the crown, and both fall under the title of "the Crown", but the king is not the same being as the queen; the two can talk to each other, argue with each other, etc. The queen is even submissive to the king even though her authority is the same as his.

Let's see --- 'God' NOT being a SINGLE being (although scripture only speaks of him being ONE and utilizes singular personal verbs, pronouns and adjectives in regard to him being the subject matter) ---- the other two beings within him of which he is composed being a Triune being can talk to themselves, argue with themselves and even be submissive to themselves????
Again, pure utter nonsense.

Yes, absolutely I get that. He was God and man at the same time. He was the King, Ruler, Creator, God, and at the same time was a lowly servant, a man, a mortal.

So Jesus was immortal while he was mortal? He was all knowing yet not all knowing? He was every where present yet he missed Lazarus sickness and death? He was all powerful yet any authority he had was given to him by God?
I have to disagree.

Most of His servants were indeed exclusively human agents. But one of His servants was Jesus, God in the flesh, God living with us, the equal of the Father.

Jesus being God was also God's servant...... God was God's servant?

Is it possible for you to limit yourself to the point that you can play a game with your children and be on a level paying field with them? Sure it is. But when you do so, do you stop being their parent? Do you stop being their mother? NO!!!!!! Jesus didn't have to stop being God in order to empty Himself of many of His attributes.

If God emptied himself of his supreme divine prerogatives - he no longer is God.

Actually, it does. Jesus is not the Father, but both are God. You are not your husband, but both of you are still "a couple". A king is not the queen, but both are still "the Crown". Jesus, you, the queen can humble yourselves to the Father, your husband, the king and do his/His will, and not produce any kind of contradiction or problem.

Believe in God believe also in me...... we have a problem Houston! Jesus tells us to believe in God and to believe also in him and he is also God......doesn't that make two Gods?

The queen is not the king so she can humble herself to her king. I am not my husband so I can humble myself to my husband.
Jesus being God cannot humble himself to himself, i.e. God --- the Father is God!!!!

You have now admitted that the Holy Spirit is God, but is not the Father. So you are admitting to a binity (two person) God. Since that is the case, why do you have such a hard time with the deity of Jesus and a trinity (three person) God? Why do you have such a hard time admitting that Jesus is God who left Heaven and took on the form of a man?

This is what I said: God is Spirit and God is Holy therefore God is the Holy Spirit and God is the Father the only true God.

In that sentence ---- the conclusion would be that since God is the Holy Spirit and the only true God is the Father then the Father would also be the Holy Spirit.

I believe the most important commandment of all:
“Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

I believe it is beyond God's holiness to become a human being to live among such unrighteousness and darkness of this present evil age.

 

[mikesw]

To be clear, you're asking me to prove that your beliefs are wrong. That is exactly what is happening here. Proving you wrong doesn't mean you will cease clinging to falsehoods. It doesn't mean your beliefs are valid just because no one can make you stop believing them.

haha. funny. I will not start clinging to falsehoods.
All you need is an argument to show the passages about the deity of Christ are somehow incorrect. What are you here for if you cannot even discuss your ideas against the evidence of scripture?

It's up to you. As for the Bible, it's perfectly clear what it says regarding the one and only God being the Father.

Sure. when you reverse everything where Jesus in earthly ministry says to the Father you are the only true God (John 17:3). This does not deny the deity of Christ since Jesus is not a separate God. Maybe you have heard of the ways scripture is shown to avoid contradiction by what some might see as polytheistic. To keep confusion, you deny John 17:5 about the preexistence of Jesus in the glory he had before. I cannot accept views that deny half of scriptures as is done by unitarians.

 

[amazing grace]

<snip>
Why didn't Matthew, Mark, Luke have anything to say about Jesus being God?
Why didn't Jesus confront Peter with the fact that he was God when Peter confessed “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”?

It does not hide that fact. It is very clear and explicit about it.

They did:
Matthew
Matt 1:23
Matt 28:19

Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us)
God with us........ And God was with us IN Christ.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
baptizing them in the authority of ..... in 'the name of' is equivalent to 'in the authority of'. Jesus said - I have come in my Father's
name meaning I have come in my Father's authority/with my Father's authority.

Luke
Luke 7:49

Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?
...... the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins [Luke 5:24] ..... Nope, doesn't say Jesus is God.

Mark Mark 2:5-7

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
The scribes were the religious leaders who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. I refer to Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:10; and Luke 5:24. Nope, doesn't say Jesus is God.

John
John 1:1
John 20:28

John 1:1c --- We have discussed this ad nauseam....... the word was God in a qualitative sense not in a sense of equality.
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Yes, Thomas referred to Jesus as God but in what manner ---- God as in Jesus was THE God? 'God' as in recognition of the risen Christ - that God raised Jesus from the dead? Just a few verses before he doesn't even believe that Jesus has been resurrected and now he believes he is God?
This is one where I will agree that Thomas called Jesus God but the question remains in what manner did he mean it.

Paul
Rom. 9:5
Col. 2:9
Phil. 2:6

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (ESV) Reading it with the punctuation this way Christ is God; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (KJV) Reading it with the punctuation this way Christ who is over all is the one who is God blessed forever. the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be Adonai for ever! Amen. (CJB) they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen. (GNT); and in these last two God is blessed forever.
This verse is considered grammatically ambiguous due to placement of the punctuation by modern translators, editors and scribes AT THEIR DISCRETION or BIAS. It is debated whether the passage identifies Jesus as 'God over all' or if it is a doxology (a blessing) directed toward God the Father...... Nope, doesn't clearly state that Jesus is God.

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus was the created, fully human, Son of God, and what God was, all the character of God, dwelt in him, and could do so because he was a man, not God ----- for he was given the spirit without measure...... For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. ..... Nope, doesn't clearly state Jesus is God.

who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped ---- being in the form of God is not the same as being God --- form is morphe and means outward appearance. This is a comparison between Jesus and Adam - Adam grasped at equality with God through disobedience, Jesus did not grasp at equality with God throught obedience..... Nope, doesn't clearly state Jesus is God.

If Jesus was God of course he would not count equality with God a thing to be grasped......He would be God and therefore wouldn't have to grasp for equality.

the author of Hebrews
Heb 1:3
Heb 1:8

He is the radiance (apaugasma reflected brightness; of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God) of the glory of God and the exact imprint (charaktēr the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile) of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high Jesus is the reflected brightness, Jesus reflects the majesty of God and he is the exact expression, the marked likeness, the precise reproduction of God. Nope, doesn't clearly state Jesus is God.
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
This is brought forward from Psalm 45:6 where it is addressed to the Davidic King......Was that King also "God"? And it seems this Davidic King has a God that has anointed him just as Jesus God and Father anointed him...... Jesus is the Lord's Christ, the Lord's anointed. Nope, doesn't clearly state that Jesus is God.

Peter
2 Pet. 1:1

Another grammatically ambiguous verse.

• “of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ” (ASV)
• “of our God, and the Saviour Jesus Christ” (Concordant Literal New Testament)
• “of our God and of our Deliverer Yeshua the Messiah” (CJB)
• “of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Weymouth)
• “of our God, and [our] Saviour Jesus Christ” (Rotherham; margin)
• “of God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Noah Webster Bible)
• “of our God, and of Jesus our Lord” (The Better Version of the New Testament);
• the Latin, Aramaic, and Sahidic texts (and a few Greek texts), read "Lord and Savior...."
• Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ: (KJ21)
• Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ: (ASV)
• Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (BRG)

2 Peter 1:1 in the Aramaic Bible (Peshitta), tranlates as: Shimeon Petraus, a Servand and an Apostle of Yeshua The Messiah to those who, equal in honor with us, were worthy for the faith by the righteousness of Our Lord and Our Savior Yeshua The Messiah.
Nope, doesn't clearly state Jesus is God.

James
James 2:1

My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. ???? This one REALLY doesn't clearly state Jesus is God.

There is no verse of scripture that states God is a Triune God or that claim Jesus is God. Jesus is always clearly and distinctly distinguished from God his Father.

 

[e v e]

I am sure all of you trinitarians have noticed by now, but the Trinity doctrine and all of its supporting doctrines are entirely circular in reasoning.

Did you ever notice how you all always begin with a presumption of a trinity god, you list all of your reasons why, but it always circles back to the beginning, all the way to square one, when asked where there is a working example of the trinity in action or someone at least defining the God of the Bible as three, a they, or them? Yet no one in all of history has been able to find that.

Consider the following common arguments produced by trinitarians, just to name a few:
"Jesus is a God-Man"
"Jesus is 100% man and 100% God"
"Jesus resurrected himself"
"Jesus pre-existed his birth"
"Jesus is the Word"
"God incarnated"

Yet the Bible doesn't say any of those things. There is no example of anyone saying Jesus is a God-Man, no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself or anyone saying he did, no examples of him pre-existing in the Old Testament either saying or doing anything. he was never called the Word, and the Bible never says Jesus incarnated.

Everything the trinitarian says begs the question: Why does the Bible never say what you say???

So what happened to all of these trinitarian people? What are they seeing that God, Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and the early church didn't even talk about?

Can any one answer one or more of these questions:

Where in the Bible does anyone ever define God as three persons in one God?​

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Trinitarians claim the Trinity is central to Christianity. Why is it that there is not one example of it being taught to anyone in Acts or elsewhere in the New Testament? Why not the Old Testament?​

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Why do the inspired writers everywhere speak of God like a single person, i,e,. He, Him, His, but never as a they or them?​

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Why does terminology, or something similar, that says "Jesus is 100% God and 100% man" never appear in the Bible?​

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Why did no one say Jesus resurrected himself after he died?​

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If Jesus pre-existed as either the Word, or God, or a member of the trinity, why does the Bible never say that and why are there no examples of such in the Old Testament?​

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Why did the apostles always call Jesus "the man" (1 Tim. 2:5), "the Son of Man," or "the Son of God," but never "God the Son?"​

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If the early church really did believe in a Trinity then why were the early centuries filled with disputes regarding who Jesus was with the result not being codified into the Catholic church until the mid-to-late 4th century?​

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Why did they not agree the Holy Spirit is a 3rd member of the trinity until the late 4th century?​

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Why do Trinitarians rely heavily on extra-biblical words/phrases (Trinity, hypostatic union, God-man, incarnate, consubstantial, etc) instead of just using the words/phrases the Bible uses?​

I only understand God, His feminine Spirit, and the Son (who represents all the sons and daughters).

Where... the daughters are in the image of His Spirit and the sons are in His image..

There is no need for that Greek plato oneness overlay which was made by Catholic theologians and augustine.
Aclaim is that it takes away from God if His Spirit is feminine... NO it does not.. God is God, His son is His son, and His Spirit is His spirit.

each of them is a being, just as each person is a being..

I am a being for example.
other souls of Him are beings.

the fixation on being as a bad word is the subject of 'substance' in Augustine,
which is based on greek philosophy...

I could say more but no one reads anyway... so no point.