The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[mikesw]

Please show where Jesus is God in the Bible then if that's what you think. I will correct your misunderstandings.

If you missed them across two years of discussion, you really are at a disadvantage. You seem to resist harder to the testimony of the deity of Christ until you share more obvious errors of quotes purporting pagan influences on the identity of God. Those sources are not even tied to any path or history of influence into scripture or subsequent writers. Nor do those pagan religions have any similarity of concepts to the Triune God of Israel.

 

[Runningman]

If you missed them across two years of discussion, you really are at a disadvantage. You seem to resist harder to the testimony of the deity of Christ until you share more obvious errors of quotes purporting pagan influences on the identity of God. Those sources are not even tied to any path or history of influence into scripture or subsequent writers. Nor do those pagan religions have any similarity of concepts to the Triune God of Israel.

You have provided your interpretations and arguments, but you have not provided anything that changes the Father's exclusive deity, nor have you provided any statements from Scripture about a trinity, nor have you provided solid reasoning to support your claims. You have been going in circles for years. You need to begin your premise with Scripture that states God is a trinity. You can't do that and that's an issue. You have been importing your theology and interpretations into Scripture rather than using what Scripture states.

 

[mikesw]

You have provided your interpretations and arguments, but you have not provided anything that changes the Father's exclusive deity, nor have you provided any statements from Scripture about a trinity, nor have you provided solid reasoning to support your claims. You have been going in circles for years. You need to begin your premise with Scripture that states God is a trinity. You can't do that and that's an issue. You have been importing your theology and interpretations into Scripture rather than using what Scripture states.

You are the one coming in with novel, gnostic, private interpretation so either you can check your own ideas against Christian understanding or to push your ideas on others. Go for it.

All you have to do is convince people that the deity of Christ is not to be believed from scripture. Then you do not even have to show how you misunderstand the Trinity.

 

[Runningman]

You are the one coming in with novel, gnostic, private interpretation so either you can check your own ideas against Christian understanding or to push your ideas on others. Go for it.

All you have to do is convince people that the deity of Christ is not to be believed from scripture. Then you do not even have to show how you misunderstand the Trinity.

Trinity, which is found no where in the Bible, is considered to be new, just like the other heresies. Actually, since you mention what is gnostic, the trinity fits that exactly. The trinity is not stated in scripture, but rather "revealed" by Scripture as trinity adherents say, making it secret knowledge. Also, many trinitarian theologians are on record explicitly stating that the trinity is an incomprehensible mystery, meaning your beliefs are actually gnostic, whereas my beliefs about God are not gnostic, but plainly stated in the Bible.

So your issue seems to be that you have not figured out that you are wrong about God, nor have even given this fact any consideration.

Let me ask you a question. Since your trinity is an incomprehensible mystery, what makes you think you can explain or understand it if the best minds in your organization have already thrown in the towel and quit trying?

 

[mikesw]

Trinity, which is found no where in the Bible, is considered to be new, just like the other heresies. Actually, since you mention what is gnostic, the trinity fits that exactly. The trinity is not stated in scripture, but rather "revealed" by Scripture as trinity adherents say, making it secret knowledge. Also, many trinitarian theologians are on record explicitly stating that the trinity is an incomprehensible mystery, meaning your beliefs are actually gnostic, whereas my beliefs about God are not gnostic, but plainly stated in the Bible.

So your issue seems to be that you have not figured out that you are wrong about God, nor have even given this fact any consideration.

Let me ask you a question. Since your trinity is an incomprehensible mystery, what makes you think you can explain or understand it if the best minds in your organization have already thrown in the towel and quit trying?

all you have to do is show that the evidence of the deity of Christ in the scriptures is wrong. Who cares about the Trinitarian doctrine if you can convincingly argue against the deity of Christ? You are all hung up later elaborations.

 

[Runningman]

all you have to do is show that the evidence of the deity of Christ in the scriptures is wrong. Who cares about the Trinitarian doctrine if you can convincingly argue against the deity of Christ? You are all hung up later elaborations.

No idea what you're talking about. Please show where Jesus is deity in the Bible.

 

[mikesw]

No idea what you're talking about. Please show where Jesus is deity in the Bible.

If you have not learned it yet, you are testifying against yourself.

 

[Runningman]

If you have not learned it yet, you are testifying against yourself.

You said "...the evidence of the deity of Christ in the scriptures.." of which there isn't any. You are making the mistake of conflating your beliefs and doctrines with what the Bible says. So I have no idea what you're talking about in that regard. Where did you see anything about Jesus being God in the Bible?? It says he's a man, God's Son, created, etc.

 

[mikesw]

You said "...the evidence of the deity of Christ in the scriptures.." of which there isn't any. You are making the mistake of conflating your beliefs and doctrines with what the Bible says. So I have no idea what you're talking about in that regard. Where did you see anything about Jesus being God in the Bible?? It says he's a man, God's Son, created, etc.

oh my. that is all that is left to say.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Bible does not say Jesus emptied himself of knowledge or his Godhood.

Scripture does tell us that Jesus is God, and that He emptied Himself. It also tells us that He didn't know certain things (like when He would return), meaning that part of what He emptied Himself of was His knowledge.

Scripture also tells us that He did not empty Himself of His Godhood (and I have never said that He did, so I have no idea where this part of your argument is coming from)(Col 2:9, Phil 2:6-7). Jesus did NOT empty Himself of His deity when He left Heaven. Consider "the Prince and the Pauper". The prince did not cease to be prince when he put on rags and left the palace. He did not have any power, he did not have any glory, but he was prince because of who he was, not what he had.

The same is true of Jesus. He is God because that is who He is, not because of His knowledge or location or the body He has. Let me ask you; of what would you have to empty yourself for it to be said that you "emptied yourself". Consider a cup. If you empty it, it doesn't cease to be a cup. And it is not empty if it still has dregs, or residue, or whatever still within it. Was Jesus empty if He still had His knowledge? No. But He could be empty if He is still God, because being God is what He is, not what He contains.

 

[amazing grace]

Scripture does tell us that Jesus is God, and that He emptied Himself. It also tells us that He didn't know certain things (like when He would return), meaning that part of what He emptied Himself of was His knowledge.

Scripture also tells us that He did not empty Himself of His Godhood (and I have never said that He did, so I have no idea where this part of your argument is coming from)(Col 2:9, Phil 2:6-7). Jesus did NOT empty Himself of His deity when He left Heaven. Consider "the Prince and the Pauper". The prince did not cease to be prince when he put on rags and left the palace. He did not have any power, he did not have any glory, but he was prince because of who he was, not what he had.

The same is true of Jesus. He is God because that is who He is, not because of His knowledge or location or the body He has. Let me ask you; of what would you have to empty yourself for it to be said that you "emptied yourself". Consider a cup. If you empty it, it doesn't cease to be a cup. And it is not empty if it still has dregs, or residue, or whatever still within it. Was Jesus empty if He still had His knowledge? No. But He could be empty if He is still God, because being God is what He is, not what He contains.

Man......all I can say is man.... wow, the lengths one has to go to to claim Jesus' deity.

First God emptied himself so that he would not know certain things, i.e. his knowledge.
God did not empty himself of his 'godhood' when he left heaven - he dressed up in the form of a man but did not cease to be God.

Jesus is God because that is who He is ---- I thought he was the Son of God, the Messiah?

Couldn't Jesus just have emptied himself of his status as Christ, as the Son of God and taken upon himself the humility of a servant as an example to us --- as Philippians 2:5 sets the tone and context --- Let this mind (this attitude) be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ...... Paul is teaching humility to the Philippian chruch NOT the TRINITY.

 

[Peterlag]

Scripture does tell us that Jesus is God, and that He emptied Himself. It also tells us that He didn't know certain things (like when He would return), meaning that part of what He emptied Himself of was His knowledge.

Scripture also tells us that He did not empty Himself of His Godhood (and I have never said that He did, so I have no idea where this part of your argument is coming from)(Col 2:9, Phil 2:6-7). Jesus did NOT empty Himself of His deity when He left Heaven. Consider "the Prince and the Pauper". The prince did not cease to be prince when he put on rags and left the palace. He did not have any power, he did not have any glory, but he was prince because of who he was, not what he had.

The same is true of Jesus. He is God because that is who He is, not because of His knowledge or location or the body He has. Let me ask you; of what would you have to empty yourself for it to be said that you "emptied yourself". Consider a cup. If you empty it, it doesn't cease to be a cup. And it is not empty if it still has dregs, or residue, or whatever still within it. Was Jesus empty if He still had His knowledge? No. But He could be empty if He is still God, because being God is what He is, not what He contains.

The Trinity does not come from Scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

Do these verses mean anything to Trinitarians?

That Paul opens with mentioning both?

How about the last one... that does not say Jesus raised himself?

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 2:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:2
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead,)

 

[Doug Brents]

Man......all I can say is man.... wow, the lengths one has to go to to claim Jesus' deity.

No lengths necessary. John 1:1 states clearly that the Logos of God is God. And John 1:14 states that the Logos of God which is God became a man and lived among men who witnessed Him and give testimony about Him.

First God emptied himself so that he would not know certain things, i.e. his knowledge.
God did not empty himself of his 'godhood' when he left heaven - he dressed up in the form of a man but did not cease to be God.

Jesus is God because that is who He is ---- I thought he was the Son of God, the Messiah?

He is indeed the Son of God, and Messiah, and God Most High, and our Master, and the list could go on.

Couldn't Jesus just have emptied himself of his status as Christ, as the Son of God and taken upon himself the humility of a servant as an example to us --- as Philippians 2:5 sets the tone and context --- Let this mind (this attitude) be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ...... Paul is teaching humility to the Philippian chruch NOT the TRINITY.

Paul is indeed teaching humility. But which is more humble, the King who lowers himself to sacrifice, or the servant who remains a servant? Paul is using the fact that Jesus was God before He came to Earth to demonstrate that He humbled Himself from supremacy to the lowliest of servants. And that is the same attitude we should have.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Trinity does not come from Scripture.

Just because you can't, or won't, see it doesn't mean it is not there.

 

[amazing grace]

No lengths necessary. John 1:1 states clearly that the Logos of God is God. And John 1:14 states that the Logos of God which is God became a man and lived among men who witnessed Him and give testimony about Him.

John 1:1c the word was God ---- Greek grammar - theos is being used as an adjective in this section.....the word fully expressed who God was. Remember God said of himself that He is NOT a man.......there is that.

He is indeed the Son of God, and Messiah, and God Most High, and our Master, and the list could go on.

He can be the Son of God and God Most High who is his Father.

Paul is indeed teaching humility. But which is more humble, the King who lowers himself to sacrifice, or the servant who remains a servant? Paul is using the fact that Jesus was God before He came to Earth to demonstrate that He humbled Himself from supremacy to the lowliest of servants. And that is the same attitude we should have.

Which is more humble? ----- The king, the Son of God, the Messiah who does not rely upon his status, his reputation but humbles himself to the status of a servant.

Paul would have never thought Jesus was God before he came to earth!!!!
Paul thought of Jesus as equivalent and on a level footing with Adam --- Adam was a type of the one who was to come (Rom. 5:14) - Jesus was the antitype to Adam. Adam grasped at equality with God - Jesus did not.

We do not change the Bible to fit our beliefs --- we change our beliefs to fit the Bible. (Sean Finnegan)

 

[Doug Brents]

John 1:1c the word was God ---- Greek grammar - theos is being used as an adjective in this section.....the word fully expressed who God was.

Indeed it does. And that is who/what the Logos is. And then the Logos, which is God, and responsible for the creation of everything that was made (meaning it cannot be something created), came to Earth and became a man (Jesus).

Remember God said of himself that He is NOT a man.......there is that.

God said He is not a man that He should lie, it being in man's nature that he lies, but God's nature forbids that He can lie. That is not saying that He cannot become a man and live a man's life.

Which is more humble? ----- The king, the Son of God, the Messiah who does not rely upon his status, his reputation but humbles himself to the status of a servant.

Paul would have never thought Jesus was God before he came to earth!!!!
Paul thought of Jesus as equivalent and on a level footing with Adam --- Adam was a type of the one who was to come (Rom. 5:14) - Jesus was the antitype to Adam. Adam grasped at equality with God - Jesus did not.

Paul knew that Jesus was God before He came to Earth. He tells us so. The quote below details some of what Paul tells us:
"So, if the nations are said to confess that the name of the true Lord is the God of Israel (Is. 45:14), and Jesus is the same Lord of the Jews and Greeks (Rom. 10:9-13), there seems to be two different “Lords” doing the same thing. Yet, Paul sees no contradiction here. In Romans 10:12, Paul draws upon Isaiah 28:16 and Joel 2:26-27, both of which show that 1) Yahweh alone is God, 2) he alone is to be believed in, and 3) belief in him will not put us to shame. And yet, even as Paul is quoting these passages, he attributes them to Jesus Christ (cf. Phil. 2:9-11; Acts 4:12).

It is the confession and belief in Jesus’ name that saves us and does not put us to shame (Rom. 5:1-5). If the LORD in Isaiah 45 is who the nations will confess and swear to, and if we must confess that Jesus is the true Lord in order to be saved (Rom. 10:9), then Jesus’ role and identity is the same as God’s. Paul is not replacing Yahweh with Jesus, nor is he saying Jesus is acting as a mere human agent of God. No, Paul is saying Jesus, the Son, is to be identified with the God of Israel. Jesus and the Father are distinct, but they are one God. To call on and believe in God for salvation is to call on and believe in Jesus Christ.
...
Once again in Paul’s writings, we see the inclusion of Jesus in the divine identity of God. In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul addresses issues in the community of the church by going back to Theological Truths 101: knowing God and loving God: (1 Corinthians 8:3-6).

The question here is not whether you know things about God, but if God knows you- and we all know that God is one, Paul says. Paul is affirming Old Testament monotheism by referring to Deut 6:4, called the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Paul affirms that this should be common knowledge for the church. It was important for Israel to know that the God who is one was their God. Likewise, it was also essential for the New Testament church to understand that the God of Israel was also their God.

Now notice what Paul says in 1 Cor. 8:5-6, “there are many so called gods…for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” The one God is the one Father and the one Son. This is why Paul can say Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him” (Col. 1:15-16).

He can say this about Jesus and then say about the Father, “for from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever” and not at all be inconsistent (Rom. 11:36). Why? Because Jesus and the Father are one God"

We do not change the Bible to fit our beliefs --- we change our beliefs to fit the Bible. (Sean Finnegan)

Precisely. So why are you trying to change what the Bible says about who Jesus is (God and Creator) to fit what you believe about Him.

 

[Peterlag]

Just because you can't, or won't, see it doesn't mean it is not there.

It's not there because it's not taught anywhere. The Jews never mention it and that means the Old Testament Prophets and not the unbelieving Jews you guys always throw in my face. And it's not taught in the New Testament.

 

[Doug Brents]

It's not there because it's not taught anywhere. The Jews never mention it and that means the Old Testament Prophets and not the unbelieving Jews you guys always throw in my face. And it's not taught in the New Testament.

You are incorrect that it is not taught anywhere in the OT, but again, that is due to willful blindness. Genesis tells us that God was talking within Himself about the creation of man (Let US create man in OUR image). The Spirit of God was above the deep (not God the Father, but the Spirit). God emphasizes that they are ONE God many times. This is not to differentiate God from the gods of other human created pantheons, but to stress the unity of the Father, Son, and Spirit (even though we had not yet been introduced to the Son).

And it is taught all over the NT. But then you have been shown that over and over, and you refuse to see.

 

[amazing grace]

Indeed it does. And that is who/what the Logos is. And then the Logos, which is God, and responsible for the creation of everything that was made (meaning it cannot be something created), came to Earth and became a man (Jesus).

God said He is not a man that He should lie, it being in man's nature that he lies, but God's nature forbids that He can lie. That is not saying that He cannot become a man and live a man's life.

God is not a man nor the son of man......God is not a human being - PERIOD.
...... the Glory of Israel ..... for he is not a man, that he should have regret.” ---- God is not a human being - PERIOD.
For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him (Job 9:32) - for God is greater than man - God is not a human being because God is GREATER than a human being. (Job 33:12) --- God is not a human being - PERIOD.
....for I am God and not a man....(Hosea 11:9) --- God is not a human being - PERIOD.

Paul knew that Jesus was God before He came to Earth. He tells us so. The quote below details some of what Paul tells us:
"So, if the nations are said to confess that the name of the true Lord is the God of Israel (Is. 45:14), and Jesus is the same Lord of the Jews and Greeks (Rom. 10:9-13), there seems to be two different “Lords” doing the same thing. Yet, Paul sees no contradiction here. In Romans 10:12, Paul draws upon Isaiah 28:16 and Joel 2:26-27, both of which show that 1) Yahweh alone is God, 2) he alone is to be believed in, and 3) belief in him will not put us to shame. And yet, even as Paul is quoting these passages, he attributes them to Jesus Christ (cf. Phil. 2:9-11; Acts 4:12).

It is the confession and belief in Jesus’ name that saves us and does not put us to shame (Rom. 5:1-5). If the LORD in Isaiah 45 is who the nations will confess and swear to, and if we must confess that Jesus is the true Lord in order to be saved (Rom. 10:9), then Jesus’ role and identity is the same as God’s. Paul is not replacing Yahweh with Jesus, nor is he saying Jesus is acting as a mere human agent of God. No, Paul is saying Jesus, the Son, is to be identified with the God of Israel. Jesus and the Father are distinct, but they are one God. To call on and believe in God for salvation is to call on and believe in Jesus Christ.

Yes, Romans 10:9-13 draws from Isaiah 28:16 and Joel 2:32 - OT believers called upon the name of the LORD (the personal name of God - Yahweh) and when brought forth to the NT the subject changes from Yahweh to Jesus, his Son.
Paul sees no contradiction here because there is none.
True, Yahweh is God alone, i.e. SINGULAR BEING.
If we receive the Son; we are receiving the one who sent him..... Believe in God, believe ALSO in me!
and belief in his Son will not put us to shame.
The scripture does not read - 'confess with your mouth that Jesus is God and Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved'

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT is key as to understanding. The context is talking about the righteousness of God and how Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. In the OT, the believers called on the LORD (Yahweh) for deliverance. In the NT, the subject has changed to the Lord Jesus Christ to call upon for deliverance, salvation.

God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36)
Just because an OT verse is quoted in relation to Jesus Christ doesn't change his identity from the Son of God to that of Yahweh himself.

Once again in Paul’s writings, we see the inclusion of Jesus in the divine identity of God. In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul addresses issues in the community of the church by going back to Theological Truths 101: knowing God and loving God: (1 Corinthians 8:3-6).

The question here is not whether you know things about God, but if God knows you- and we all know that God is one, Paul says. Paul is affirming Old Testament monotheism by referring to Deut 6:4, called the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Paul affirms that this should be common knowledge for the church. It was important for Israel to know that the God who is one was their God. Likewise, it was also essential for the New Testament church to understand that the God of Israel was also their God.

Now notice what Paul says in 1 Cor. 8:5-6, “there are many so called gods…for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” The one God is the one Father and the one Son. This is why Paul can say Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him” (Col. 1:15-16).

He can say this about Jesus and then say about the Father, “for from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever” and not at all be inconsistent (Rom. 11:36). Why? Because Jesus and the Father are one God"

The one God is the one Father and the one Son???
No, there is one God who is the Father and one Lord who is Jesus Christ...... God is a title for the Father and Lord is a title in reference to Jesus Christ.
Yes, Jesus is the image of the invisible God - all humanity was made in the image of God.
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, the new creation, i.e. he is the firstborn out from among the dead.
The things that have been created for him and by him in heaven, invisible and on earth, visible are 'thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities' --- all in relation to the new creation, the church, his body of which he is the head and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3)

Precisely. So why are you trying to change what the Bible says about who Jesus is (God and Creator) to fit what you believe about Him.

Give me: Just one verse that calls Jesus - God the Son.
Just one verse that actually says Jesus is a 'god man'.
Just one verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
Just one verse that actually says Jesus is both 100%God and 100%man.
Just one verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
Just one verse that actually says Jesus is God --- If the Trinity is that important of a doctrine that one's salvation hinges upon that belief - it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

I was Trinitarian --- when I couldn't find clear and plain scripture claiming the things taught within that doctrine - I did change my beliefs to fit the Bible.