The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[amazing grace]

That is a great opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. Was Jesus tempted? YES. Did Jesus have the ability to sin? YES. Did Jesus succumb to the sin with which He was tempted? NO.

Jesus had just as much of a chance of sinning as any other human, but He withstood the temptation and overcame. Sin did not spread to Him because He did not sin. It had NOTHING to do with the manner in which He was conceived.

Well, at least one thing we can agree on ---- Jesus could have sinned yet he didn't.

Ahh, so now you are going back on what you agreed to? John 1:1 says that the Word IS God. It does not give any qualification what it means by "the Word was God", it simply states that fact. The Word, the Logos of God, IS God.

Now you say you do not deny John 1:14 which says that the Word, the Logos of God, took on flesh in the man we know as Jesus. Since the Word is God, and the Word became Jesus, that makes Jesus God.
It doesn't work in your mind, because you think that God is a singular being. But that is where you need to let Scripture inform your doctrine, and change your mind.

John 1:1c we have discussed ad nauseum.......the word was God..... God is in the nominative case which means the noun 'God' is being used as an adjective and therefore, the word was God in a qualitative sense not in a sense of equality.

I have never denied John 1:14, the word became flesh ---- all the qualities of God within his word became flesh - you know the expression -- like Father like Son.

I don't THINK God is a singular person/being - I KNOW that God is a singular person/being letting the Scripture inform my doctrine.

Not if He emptied Himself of those qualities and made Himself a servant.

As I said if Jesus, being God, emptied himself of all his supreme attributes --- all the things that make him God in the first place then he is no longer God but Trinitarians insist that he never quit being God!!!!

Sure there are others who share your opinion, but since that opinion contradicts Scripture it is a meaningless opinion.

I CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE --- MOI? That's the pot calling the kettle black I don't know about YOUR scriptures but MY scriptures declare God, aka Yahweh as single, only, alone identified by singular pronouns - me, myself, I, he, him, his, etc.

And Jesus said that He is the "self existent one". Equating Himself with God.

False. When Jesus was born he was dependent upon his parents. As a youth and when he started his ministry - He was dependent upon his Father for everything.

Great articulation of human logic, but it is wrong in its assumptions. You assume that just because the Father is greater than the Son that the two cannot both be the same God. Scripture does not give any credibility to that assumption; it actually states the exact opposite.

You got that right!!! I will utilize my God given prerogative to THINK and that requires LOGIC.
Your premise is that Jesus is God remember. HOW CAN GOD EVER BE GREATER THAN HIMSELF?

Wrong. In Genesis 1, there are several times that God, speaking within Himself, talks about Himself in the plural: "Let US make man in OUR image" etc. Yes, God is one, as man and wife are one.

God is not talking to himself here --- Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:5-9; and Isaiah 6:6-8 - In each we have the singular God/LORD speaking to someone else----clearly to persons other than himself. In two of the 'us' references Gen. 3:22 and Isaiah 6:6-8 - cherubim and seraphim are present and it's highly likely that God is speaking to them. It wouldn't be beyond impossible for Gen. 1:26 and Gen. 11:5-9 to also be God speaking to his heavenly host, to the angelic beings.
And they were there in the beginning when God laid the foundation of the earth - 'when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy' [Job 38:7]

Four verses in all of scripture referencing plural pronouns isn't really significant among the many (approximately 25,000) usages of the singular verbs, adjectives, and pronouns used in reference to God.

No, God is not one as man and wife are one ---- man and wife are two people who are made one by the intimacy between them.

You have no concept of what the word "empty" means, do you?

first I want to look at what I said to which you responded the above ^^^^^^^

<snip> If the logos was God qualitatively, as in demonstrative of God's qualities then those qualities became flesh in the only Son from the Father.
<snip>

I just want to note that when I say "God qualitatively as in God's qualities" - I believe there is a difference in God's qualities - love, gracious, faithfulness, goodness, kindness, merciful, etc. and His supreme attributes of being self existent, self sufficient and His omni's. I wanted to qualify what I mean so there is no misunderstanding when I say in response to:

Not if He emptied Himself of those qualities and made Himself a servant.

Again, human logic that falls flat in the face of Scriptural statements.

I know that when you have a glass full of liquid and you pour it out it's empty - if I have a bowl of soup and I eat it all - the bowl is empty. Now, we have Jesus who is supposedly God. This Jesus who is God emptied himself of his supreme attributes - his Omni's ---- NOW HE IS NO LONGER GOD because there's nothing left to identify him as God.

And there you go demonstrating your inabilities again. The queen is not the King, but both are still the rulers of their land (the Crown). The wife is not the husband, but both are still the rulers of their household (a Couple). The Son is not the Father, but both are still the rulers of all Creation (God).

We were talking about submission not rulership and beside that Jesus is not ruler yet ---- all things are not in submission to him YET.
Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. (Hebrews 2:8)

That is again a human logic conclusion. But Scripture demonstrates over and over that the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father.

Is God the Holy Spirit? Is God the Father? Then the Father is the Holy Spirit. Yes, thank you God for giving me a brain to think and reason and use logic! Now WHERE is it demonstrated in scripture that the Holy Spirit is not the Father?

Then you don't believe in the Lord and God explained and demonstrated in the Bible.

Oh, But I do.

God was with us by being the Christ.

God was with us by being IN Christ scripture backs me up.....where's your scripture saying God was the Christ; where God was the Messiah, where God is the anointed, where God anointed HIMSELF?

You don't include the messenger's name with the name of the one who sent them when you are calling on their authority. Unless, of course, the messenger IS EQUAL TO the one sending the message.

The messenger is never equal to the one sending out the messenger-----Here is what Jesus says regarding the relation between a servant and master and a messenger with the one who sent him --- they are not on equal footing.
Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. [John 13:16]

Only God has the authority to forgive sin. If Jesus is doing something that only God can do, then either He is sinning, or He is God. Those are the only two options. If He is sinning, then He cannot be our savior. But if He is God, then you must submit to Him as God.
See above.

That's funny since scripture says that 'the Son of man has authority to forgive sins' - someone gave him authority --- 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me' - so I'll take that option.

So His quality was equal to God, but He was not equal to God? That doesn't make any sense.

Maybe you need to use some of that human logic God gave you! Jesus embodied the qualities of God --- loving, merciful, kindness, faithfulness, gracious, forgiving, etc.

Did Jesus deny being God? If He did not, and He is not God, then He sinned (and as stated above, He cannot be our savior).

Jesus never claimed to be God. Why are you making the accusation that he sinned by allowing Thomas recognize him as 'My Lord and My God' - in recognizing the power of God in him by his resurrected body?????
What are you talking about?

It is debated because there are some, like yourself, who want to disavow the deity of Jesus. The Greek words and the forms used indicate that it is Jesus who is God over all (except the Father as stated elsewhere).

It is debated because of the placement of the punctuation (Romans 9:5) which is not 'inspired by God' but added to the text.

If a person has the "whole fullness of" something within them, that makes them wholly equal to that thing. If everything that is God is within Jesus, then Jesus is wholly equal to God.

The whole fullness of God's Spirit, of the Spirit of God dwelled in him. [John 3:34 KJV] He was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism --- he was filled with the fullness of God's Spirit ---- doesn't make him equal to God nor does it make him God.

The word "grasp" also means "to hold onto". Jesus let go of His equality with the Father. And it wasn't Adam's desire to be equal with God, but Satan's desire with which he tricked Eve, and then Adam.

True harpagmos can mean 1. the act of seizing, robbery; 2. a thing seized or to be seized, a) booty to deem anything a prize, b) a thing to be seized upon or to be held fast, retained.
I can see where you would read it in that manner and I probably would to IF I THOUGHT JESUS was ever equal to HIS FATHER but in NO RELATIONSHIP is the SON EQUAL TO HIS FATHER ---
Satan lied to Adam and Eve 'when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil'.....they ate - they grasped at equality with God.

So Jesus is the reflected power of God, but it is through Jesus own power that He upholds the universe (see bolded above)?
And as a man, Jesus would indeed be a reflection, an image, of God. But in Heaven before He came to Earth as a man, He was not an image, but the real deal.

Jesus reflects God's glory. Yes, Jesus is upholds all things by the word of his power. What do you think Jesus is doing right now exalted at the right hand of God? You think he is just sitting around waiting for the time for his second coming?
God has given to Jesus 'all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me' (Matt. 28:18). So, in some capacity, being enthroned at the right hand of God, he has been given the capacity to rule God's creation and in some sense he is ruling and reigning NOW.

You are reading that as two different individuals. But it is not. Our God and our savior are one: Jesus.

Maybe it's because they are two different individuals, two different people. Our God, aka Yahweh and our Savior, aka the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Who is the Lord/King of Glory? Psalm 24:10 says that the King of Glory is God. And James 2:1 says that the Lord of Glory is Jesus.

So you are assuming that the King of glory and the Lord of Glory are equivalent in meaning?
The King of Glory is God --- the Lord of Glory is Jesus identifying him as the one to whom God has delegated supreme authority and in whom God’s "glory" resides......the radiance of God's glory.

Yes He is. Because He is a separate being from the Father, but that doesn't not stop Him from being equally God with the Father (although submissive to Him).

Then why accuse me (above) of 'reading two different individuals' at 2 Peter 1:1 if Jesus is a separate being from the Father?
Does anyone in the Trinitarian camp listen to their own words:

'that doesn't stop him from being equally God with the Father (although submissive to Him)'. Does that sound off to anyone?

 

[Doug Brents]

John 1:1c we have discussed ad nauseum.......the word was God..... God is in the nominative case which means the noun 'God' is being used as an adjective and therefore, the word was God in a qualitative sense not in a sense of equality.

No, the word "God" in John 1:1 is not used as an adjective in any instance. But even if it were, there is no difference between Him being God in a qualitative sense and being equal to God.

I have never denied John 1:14, the word became flesh ---- all the qualities of God within his word became flesh - you know the expression -- like Father like Son.

Yet you deny that Jesus is God. That is completely oxymoronic.

I don't THINK God is a singular person/being - I KNOW that God is a singular person/being letting the Scripture inform my doctrine.

Well, that is your first and biggest error. God is ONE (united, just as you and your husband), but not one being (just as you and your husband are not). The Spirit is not the Father, but He is God. Jesus is not the Father, but He is God.

As I said if Jesus, being God, emptied himself of all his supreme attributes --- all the things that make him God in the first place then he is no longer God but Trinitarians insist that he never quit being God!!!!

You cannot empty yourself of being human. You can empty yourself of your intelligence, knowledge, strength, talents, passions, power, glory, etc., but you cannot cease to be human. The fact that God is omnipotent is not what makes Him God. The fact that God is omniscient is not what makes Him God. The fact that God is eternal is not what makes Him God. He is God because He is God. He doesn't cease being who/what He is just because He leaves Heaven, empties Himself of His knowledge, power, glory, etc.

I CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE --- MOI?

Oui, tu.

That's the pot calling the kettle black I don't know about YOUR scriptures but MY scriptures declare God, aka Yahweh as single, only, alone identified by singular pronouns - me, myself, I, he, him, his, etc.

In most cases it does indeed. But when speaking in Gen 1, the words "us" and "our" (plural pronouns) are used. That many not mean anything to you, but it is very significant, because God does not use words frivolously anywhere in Scripture. Every word has significance and meaning.

False. When Jesus was born he was dependent upon his parents. As a youth and when he started his ministry - He was dependent upon his Father for everything.

He was indeed dependent upon His parents for His upbringing as a child. And He was dependent upon the Father for everything as an adult, but He was not dependent on anyone or anything for His existence. Jesus is eternal. He existed before time, before Creation, before anything other than the Father. Jesus exists just because Jesus is.

You got that right!!! I will utilize my God given prerogative to THINK and that requires LOGIC.
Your premise is that Jesus is God remember. HOW CAN GOD EVER BE GREATER THAN HIMSELF?

God the Father is greater than God the Son, only because the Son submitted Himself to the Father, and emptied Himself of His glory and the independent use of His power to become a man.

God is not talking to himself here --- Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:5-9; and Isaiah 6:6-8 - In each we have the singular God/LORD speaking to someone else----clearly to persons other than himself.

Who else has the power of Creation? Who else was in God's image before man was created? You are letting your preconception cloud and color your ability to see Truth.

In two of the 'us' references Gen. 3:22 and Isaiah 6:6-8 - cherubim and seraphim are present and it's highly likely that God is speaking to them.

The cherubim and seraphim are not made in God's image. Nor do they have the power to create. So God would not have asked them to contribute to Creation, nor would they be a part of "our image". Care to try again?

It wouldn't be beyond impossible for Gen. 1:26 and Gen. 11:5-9 to also be God speaking to his heavenly host, to the angelic beings.

See above.

Four verses in all of scripture referencing plural pronouns isn't really significant among the many (approximately 25,000) usages of the singular verbs, adjectives, and pronouns used in reference to God.

ANY usage is significant in Scripture. There is NO misused word, no error, no contradiction, no lie, no falsehood in Scripture.

No, God is not one as man and wife are one ---- man and wife are two people who are made one by the intimacy between them.

God gave us marriage to demonstrate to us His own union, so that we could see and experience a pale shadow of what He is.

I just want to note that when I say "God qualitatively as in God's qualities" - I believe there is a difference in God's qualities - love, gracious, faithfulness, goodness, kindness, merciful, etc. and His supreme attributes of being self existent, self sufficient and His omni's. I wanted to qualify what I mean so there is no misunderstanding when I say in response to:

I know that when you have a glass full of liquid and you pour it out it's empty - if I have a bowl of soup and I eat it all - the bowl is empty. Now, we have Jesus who is supposedly God. This Jesus who is God emptied himself of his supreme attributes - his Omni's ---- NOW HE IS NO LONGER GOD because there's nothing left to identify him as God.

Sure there is a difference between God's qualities that we share with Him and our own versions of those qualities. But that is not what I am talking about. God's "omni" traits are not what make Him God. That is another fallacy of yours. God would still be God if He didn't have those overarching, mind-blowing traits. Does a human become a worm if they don't have arms? Does a human become a monkey if they don't have intelligence? Does a human become a bat if they lose their eyesight? No. Those traits do not make us human. It is the fact that we have a spirit, a living spirit within us that makes us Human. God is God because He exists; He exists without support, influence, origin, end, etc. There is no other being in existence that exists without any qualifiers besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are God, one God, and there is no amount of emptying that can remove their deity.

We were talking about submission not rulership and beside that Jesus is not ruler yet ---- all things are not in submission to him YET.
Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. (Hebrews 2:8)

Is God not the ruler of all creation? Hmmm?

Is God the Holy Spirit? Is God the Father? Then the Father is the Holy Spirit. Yes, thank you God for giving me a brain to think and reason and use logic! Now WHERE is it demonstrated in scripture that the Holy Spirit is not the Father?

Matt 28:19
2 Cor 13:14
John 16:13
John 14:26

Oh, But I do.

You can claim whatever you want, but you then demonstrate that you do not, making your claim a lie. You claim to believe in Him, but then you deny who He says that He is. Not really a legitimate claim, now is it?

God was with us by being IN Christ scripture backs me up.....where's your scripture saying God was the Christ; where God was the Messiah, where God is the anointed, where God anointed HIMSELF?

John 1, 'nuff said.

The messenger is never equal to the one sending out the messenger-----Here is what Jesus says regarding the relation between a servant and master and a messenger with the one who sent him --- they are not on equal footing.
Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. [John 13:16]

Never said He was equal, I said He was equally God.

That's funny since scripture says that 'the Son of man has authority to forgive sins' - someone gave him authority --- 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me' - so I'll take that option.

The Son is God, so of course He has that authority.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Why are you making the accusation that he sinned by allowing Thomas recognize him as 'My Lord and My God' - in recognizing the power of God in him by his resurrected body?????
What are you talking about?

It is a sin to accept the acclamation, worship, praise, etc. that belongs only to God. Thomas bowed down and worshiped Jesus as God. If Jesus was not God, then it would have been a sin for Him to accept that praise and worship. The ONLY way that is not a sin is if it is true.

It is debated because of the placement of the punctuation (Romans 9:5) which is not 'inspired by God' but added to the text.

And that punctuation is placed there by people who, like yourself, deny what Scripture says elsewhere about who Jesus is.

The whole fullness of God's Spirit, of the Spirit of God dwelled in him. [John 3:34 KJV] He was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism --- he was filled with the fullness of God's Spirit ---- doesn't make him equal to God nor does it make him God.

Jesus was born with the fullness of God within Him. He was empowered by the Spirit to do miracles after His baptism, but He always possessed the full measure of God.

True harpagmos can mean 1. the act of seizing, robbery; 2. a thing seized or to be seized, a) booty to deem anything a prize, b) a thing to be seized upon or to be held fast, retained.
I can see where you would read it in that manner and I probably would to IF I THOUGHT JESUS was ever equal to HIS FATHER but in NO RELATIONSHIP is the SON EQUAL TO HIS FATHER ---

If you believed Scripture, then you would believe that Jesus is God along with the Father and Spirit.

Satan lied to Adam and Eve 'when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil'.....they ate - they grasped at equality with God.

Sure they did. But it was Satan's grasping first. He was the greatest, most wise, most beautiful of God's creations. And he thought that as great as he was he could force God to make him united with Them (the Father, Son, and Spirit). But he failed, and so was cast out of Heaven.

Jesus reflects God's glory. Yes, Jesus is upholds all things by the word of his power. What do you think Jesus is doing right now exalted at the right hand of God? You think he is just sitting around waiting for the time for his second coming?
God has given to Jesus 'all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me' (Matt. 28:18). So, in some capacity, being enthroned at the right hand of God, he has been given the capacity to rule God's creation and in some sense he is ruling and reigning NOW.

As noted previously, Jesus was already the fullness of God before He left Heaven.

So you are assuming that the King of glory and the Lord of Glory are equivalent in meaning?
The King of Glory is God --- the Lord of Glory is Jesus identifying him as the one to whom God has delegated supreme authority and in whom God’s "glory" resides......the radiance of God's glory.

Yes, the King of Glory and the Lord of Glory are the same. And both phrases describe God.

Then why accuse me (above) of 'reading two different individuals' at 2 Peter 1:1 if Jesus is a separate being from the Father?
Does anyone in the Trinitarian camp listen to their own words:

You assume that the verse is talking about two different individuals; it is not. I have said many times that they are two different beings.

 

[JesusFan]

Well, at least one thing we can agree on ---- Jesus could have sinned yet he didn't.

John 1:1c we have discussed ad nauseum.......the word was God..... God is in the nominative case which means the noun 'God' is being used as an adjective and therefore, the word was God in a qualitative sense not in a sense of equality.

I have never denied John 1:14, the word became flesh ---- all the qualities of God within his word became flesh - you know the expression -- like Father like Son.

I don't THINK God is a singular person/being - I KNOW that God is a singular person/being letting the Scripture inform my doctrine.

As I said if Jesus, being God, emptied himself of all his supreme attributes --- all the things that make him God in the first place then he is no longer God but Trinitarians insist that he never quit being God!!!!

I CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE --- MOI? That's the pot calling the kettle black I don't know about YOUR scriptures but MY scriptures declare God, aka Yahweh as single, only, alone identified by singular pronouns - me, myself, I, he, him, his, etc.

False. When Jesus was born he was dependent upon his parents. As a youth and when he started his ministry - He was dependent upon his Father for everything.

You got that right!!! I will utilize my God given prerogative to THINK and that requires LOGIC.
Your premise is that Jesus is God remember. HOW CAN GOD EVER BE GREATER THAN HIMSELF?

God is not talking to himself here --- Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:5-9; and Isaiah 6:6-8 - In each we have the singular God/LORD speaking to someone else----clearly to persons other than himself. In two of the 'us' references Gen. 3:22 and Isaiah 6:6-8 - cherubim and seraphim are present and it's highly likely that God is speaking to them. It wouldn't be beyond impossible for Gen. 1:26 and Gen. 11:5-9 to also be God speaking to his heavenly host, to the angelic beings.
And they were there in the beginning when God laid the foundation of the earth - 'when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy' [Job 38:7]

Four verses in all of scripture referencing plural pronouns isn't really significant among the many (approximately 25,000) usages of the singular verbs, adjectives, and pronouns used in reference to God.

No, God is not one as man and wife are one ---- man and wife are two people who are made one by the intimacy between them.

first I want to look at what I said to which you responded the above ^^^^^^^

I just want to note that when I say "God qualitatively as in God's qualities" - I believe there is a difference in God's qualities - love, gracious, faithfulness, goodness, kindness, merciful, etc. and His supreme attributes of being self existent, self sufficient and His omni's. I wanted to qualify what I mean so there is no misunderstanding when I say in response to:

I know that when you have a glass full of liquid and you pour it out it's empty - if I have a bowl of soup and I eat it all - the bowl is empty. Now, we have Jesus who is supposedly God. This Jesus who is God emptied himself of his supreme attributes - his Omni's ---- NOW HE IS NO LONGER GOD because there's nothing left to identify him as God.

We were talking about submission not rulership and beside that Jesus is not ruler yet ---- all things are not in submission to him YET.
Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. (Hebrews 2:8)

Is God the Holy Spirit? Is God the Father? Then the Father is the Holy Spirit. Yes, thank you God for giving me a brain to think and reason and use logic! Now WHERE is it demonstrated in scripture that the Holy Spirit is not the Father?

Oh, But I do.

God was with us by being IN Christ scripture backs me up.....where's your scripture saying God was the Christ; where God was the Messiah, where God is the anointed, where God anointed HIMSELF?

The messenger is never equal to the one sending out the messenger-----Here is what Jesus says regarding the relation between a servant and master and a messenger with the one who sent him --- they are not on equal footing.
Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. [John 13:16]

That's funny since scripture says that 'the Son of man has authority to forgive sins' - someone gave him authority --- 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me' - so I'll take that option.

Maybe you need to use some of that human logic God gave you! Jesus embodied the qualities of God --- loving, merciful, kindness, faithfulness, gracious, forgiving, etc.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Why are you making the accusation that he sinned by allowing Thomas recognize him as 'My Lord and My God' - in recognizing the power of God in him by his resurrected body?????
What are you talking about?

It is debated because of the placement of the punctuation (Romans 9:5) which is not 'inspired by God' but added to the text.

The whole fullness of God's Spirit, of the Spirit of God dwelled in him. [John 3:34 KJV] He was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism --- he was filled with the fullness of God's Spirit ---- doesn't make him equal to God nor does it make him God.

True harpagmos can mean 1. the act of seizing, robbery; 2. a thing seized or to be seized, a) booty to deem anything a prize, b) a thing to be seized upon or to be held fast, retained.
I can see where you would read it in that manner and I probably would to IF I THOUGHT JESUS was ever equal to HIS FATHER but in NO RELATIONSHIP is the SON EQUAL TO HIS FATHER ---
Satan lied to Adam and Eve 'when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil'.....they ate - they grasped at equality with God.

Jesus reflects God's glory. Yes, Jesus is upholds all things by the word of his power. What do you think Jesus is doing right now exalted at the right hand of God? You think he is just sitting around waiting for the time for his second coming?
God has given to Jesus 'all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me' (Matt. 28:18). So, in some capacity, being enthroned at the right hand of God, he has been given the capacity to rule God's creation and in some sense he is ruling and reigning NOW.

Maybe it's because they are two different individuals, two different people. Our God, aka Yahweh and our Savior, aka the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

So you are assuming that the King of glory and the Lord of Glory are equivalent in meaning?
The King of Glory is God --- the Lord of Glory is Jesus identifying him as the one to whom God has delegated supreme authority and in whom God’s "glory" resides......the radiance of God's glory.

Then why accuse me (above) of 'reading two different individuals' at 2 Peter 1:1 if Jesus is a separate being from the Father?
Does anyone in the Trinitarian camp listen to their own words:

'that doesn't stop him from being equally God with the Father (although submissive to Him)'. Does that sound off to anyone?

Jesus NEVER emptied Himself of his deity/divine attributes, but he accepted limitations placed upon Himself while Incarnated in human Flesh

 

[JesusFan]

No, the word "God" in John 1:1 is not used as an adjective in any instance. But even if it were, there is no difference between Him being God in a qualitative sense and being equal to God.

Yet you deny that Jesus is God. That is completely oxymoronic.

Well, that is your first and biggest error. God is ONE (united, just as you and your husband), but not one being (just as you and your husband are not). The Spirit is not the Father, but He is God. Jesus is not the Father, but He is God.

You cannot empty yourself of being human. You can empty yourself of your intelligence, knowledge, strength, talents, passions, power, glory, etc., but you cannot cease to be human. The fact that God is omnipotent is not what makes Him God. The fact that God is omniscient is not what makes Him God. The fact that God is eternal is not what makes Him God. He is God because He is God. He doesn't cease being who/what He is just because He leaves Heaven, empties Himself of His knowledge, power, glory, etc.

Oui, tu.

In most cases it does indeed. But when speaking in Gen 1, the words "us" and "our" (plural pronouns) are used. That many not mean anything to you, but it is very significant, because God does not use words frivolously anywhere in Scripture. Every word has significance and meaning.

He was indeed dependent upon His parents for His upbringing as a child. And He was dependent upon the Father for everything as an adult, but He was not dependent on anyone or anything for His existence. Jesus is eternal. He existed before time, before Creation, before anything other than the Father. Jesus exists just because Jesus is.

God the Father is greater than God the Son, only because the Son submitted Himself to the Father, and emptied Himself of His glory and the independent use of His power to become a man.

Who else has the power of Creation? Who else was in God's image before man was created? You are letting your preconception cloud and color your ability to see Truth.

The cherubim and seraphim are not made in God's image. Nor do they have the power to create. So God would not have asked them to contribute to Creation, nor would they be a part of "our image". Care to try again?

See above.

ANY usage is significant in Scripture. There is NO misused word, no error, no contradiction, no lie, no falsehood in Scripture.

God gave us marriage to demonstrate to us His own union, so that we could see and experience a pale shadow of what He is.

Sure there is a difference between God's qualities that we share with Him and our own versions of those qualities. But that is not what I am talking about. God's "omni" traits are not what make Him God. That is another fallacy of yours. God would still be God if He didn't have those overarching, mind-blowing traits. Does a human become a worm if they don't have arms? Does a human become a monkey if they don't have intelligence? Does a human become a bat if they lose their eyesight? No. Those traits do not make us human. It is the fact that we have a spirit, a living spirit within us that makes us Human. God is God because He exists; He exists without support, influence, origin, end, etc. There is no other being in existence that exists without any qualifiers besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are God, one God, and there is no amount of emptying that can remove their deity.

Is God not the ruler of all creation? Hmmm?


Matt 28:19
2 Cor 13:14
John 16:13
John 14:26

You can claim whatever you want, but you then demonstrate that you do not, making your claim a lie. You claim to believe in Him, but then you deny who He says that He is. Not really a legitimate claim, now is it?

John 1, 'nuff said.

Never said He was equal, I said He was equally God.

The Son is God, so of course He has that authority.

It is a sin to accept the acclamation, worship, praise, etc. that belongs only to God. Thomas bowed down and worshiped Jesus as God. If Jesus was not God, then it would have been a sin for Him to accept that praise and worship. The ONLY way that is not a sin is if it is true.

And that punctuation is placed there by people who, like yourself, deny what Scripture says elsewhere about who Jesus is.

Jesus was born with the fullness of God within Him. He was empowered by the Spirit to do miracles after His baptism, but He always possessed the full measure of God.

If you believed Scripture, then you would believe that Jesus is God along with the Father and Spirit.

Sure they did. But it was Satan's grasping first. He was the greatest, most wise, most beautiful of God's creations. And he thought that as great as he was he could force God to make him united with Them (the Father, Son, and Spirit). But he failed, and so was cast out of Heaven.

As noted previously, Jesus was already the fullness of God before He left Heaven.

Yes, the King of Glory and the Lord of Glory are the same. And both phrases describe God.

You assume that the verse is talking about two different individuals; it is not. I have said many times that they are two different beings.

Jesus agreed on limitations of being in human flesh, not to exercise His divine attributes, but always was still fully God fully Man

 

[dwight92070]

This isn't a standard Trinitarian interpretation. There are two separate judgements, one for believers and one for non-believers. Believers are judged by Jesus personally. Non-believers are judged directly by God.

The 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10 verses are written directly to Christians, but they aren't describing the same judgement. The judgement seat of Christ is a judgement to determine one's works, but salvation isn't at stake (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) but the judgement seat of God is conducted by the One on the throne (Revelation 20:11-15) and in Revelation the throne of Christ and throne of God are distinct (Revelation 3:21, Revelation 5:1-7, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9-10, Revelation 22:1-3)

So the judgement seat of God and judgement of Christ cannot be the same judgements, contextually speaking, without contradiction.

Rev.5:1-7 says nothing about the throne of Christ or the Lamb. Nor does Rev.6:16 or Rev.7:9-10. All 3 of those refer only to the "One who sits on the throne", which we know is the Father - but none of them speak of the throne of Christ or the Lamb.
So the only verse that supports your suggestion of there being 2 distinct thrones is Rev.3:21, and I certainly don't deny that.
However, your last reference, Rev.22:1-3 gives us new information.
It speaks of the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb in verse 1 - and again in verse 3, the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb. Here we see only one throne, but it's the throne of God AND of the Lamb.
Why does it speak earlier of two thrones, but here only one throne? We don't know for sure, but we do know that Jesus said "I and the Father are one."

Jesus plainly states that the Father "has given ALL judgment to the Son". He also said "He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man." John 5:22,27

Also Jesus plainly tells us that both believers and non-believers will be judged by Jesus at the same time - even in the same hour.
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." John 5:28-29

We see this same judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

There appears to be only one judgment, which occurs "on the last day". Martha spoke of it in John 11:24 - "I know that he (Lazarus) will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Jesus Himself spoke of the last day several times - as the day of resurrection of all mankind, both good and evil.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 and John 12:48.

This is how we know that there will be no 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth because "the last day" means there will be no more days after that. The judgment day, the resurrection day, the day of the only rapture of the saints who are alive at that time, the 2nd coming of Christ - will all occur on the last day. No days will follow it.

 

[amazing grace]

No, the word "God" in John 1:1 is not used as an adjective in any instance. But even if it were, there is no difference between Him being God in a qualitative sense and being equal to God.

There is quite a bit of difference in being like God, having the qualities and characteristics of God to actually being THE GOD, THE ALMIGHTY GOD.

Yet you deny that Jesus is God. That is completely oxymoronic.

To you it may seem that way but it's not an oxymoron.

Well, that is your first and biggest error. God is ONE (united, just as you and your husband), but not one being (just as you and your husband are not). The Spirit is not the Father, but He is God. Jesus is not the Father, but He is God.

Hear O, Israel the LORD our God, the LORD is one. (echad - the numeral one)
God is the Father --- Jesus praying to his Father --- And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Jesus describes his Father as the ONLY true God. [John 17:3]
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? [Malachi 2:10]
God is the Father and God is the Holy Spirit - The LORD is great in Zion; he is exalted over all the peoples. Let them praise your great and awesome name! Holy is he! (Psalm 99:1-3) God is Spirit. (John 4:24a)
Correct, Jesus is not the Father and since he is not the Father and the Father is the one true God ---- Jesus is not God..

I don't know how many times I have to tell you but my husband and I are NOT ONE BEING - We are TWO one male and one female. What makes my husband and I one is the act of intimacy shared between us.

You cannot empty yourself of being human. You can empty yourself of your intelligence, knowledge, strength, talents, passions, power, glory, etc., but you cannot cease to be human. The fact that God is omnipotent is not what makes Him God. The fact that God is omniscient is not what makes Him God. The fact that God is eternal is not what makes Him God. He is God because He is God. He doesn't cease being who/what He is just because He leaves Heaven, empties Himself of His knowledge, power, glory, etc.

What makes God God is THE FACT THAT HE IS all powerful, all knowing, every where present, invisible, immortal, etc.----THOSE ATTRIBUTES BELONG TO GOD ALONE.
God told Moses: “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— .... I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. [Deut. 18:15,18]
God told David: When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son----- 2 Samuel 7:12-14
Matthew begins his gospel with the genealogy of Jesus - The book of the genealogy (genesis, source) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham...... Jesus came from a long line of HUMAN BEINGS! He is a legitimate member of the human race - God is not a descendant of Abraham or David or from the tribe of Judah.
God told us he GAVE his only begotten Son at John 3:16 ---- was that a lie, a coverup, some delusion we are to believe?

Oui, tu.
In most cases it does indeed. But when speaking in Gen 1, the words "us" and "our" (plural pronouns) are used. That many not mean anything to you, but it is very significant, because God does not use words frivolously anywhere in Scripture. Every word has significance and meaning.

God is not talking to himself here --- Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:5-9; and Isaiah 6:6-8 - In each we have the singular God/LORD speaking to someone else----clearly to persons other than himself. In two of the 'us' references Gen. 3:22 and Isaiah 6:6-8 - cherubim and seraphim are present and it's highly likely that God is speaking to them. It wouldn't be beyond impossible for Gen. 1:26 and Gen. 11:5-9 to also be God speaking to his heavenly host, to the angelic beings.
And they were there in the beginning when God laid the foundation of the earth - 'when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy' [Job 38:7]

He was indeed dependent upon His parents for His upbringing as a child. And He was dependent upon the Father for everything as an adult, but He was not dependent on anyone or anything for His existence. Jesus is eternal. He existed before time, before Creation, before anything other than the Father. Jesus exists just because Jesus is.

God is never dependent upon anyone or anything.
Jesus is not eternal - lasting or existing forever --- HE DIED! --- he was raised to eternal life, he was given eternal life.
Jesus exist because : And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God........ (Luke 1:35) and because Mary said YES : And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. [Luke 1:38]

God the Father is greater than God the Son, only because the Son submitted Himself to the Father, and emptied Himself of His glory and the independent use of His power to become a man.

Your premise is that Jesus is God remember. HOW CAN GOD EVER BE GREATER THAN HIMSELF?
There is no 'God the Son' - no such terminology used in scripture. God is greater than the Son because God is God and God is his Father.

Who else has the power of Creation? Who else was in God's image before man was created? You are letting your preconception cloud and color your ability to see Truth.

The cherubim and seraphim are not made in God's image. Nor do they have the power to create. So God would not have asked them to contribute to Creation, nor would they be a part of "our image". Care to try again?

See above.

Are cherubim, seraphim, angels in general spirit beings? Is God a spirit being? Did I say that they helped in any manner to create? I said God was speaking to them, he was having a general conversation with them --- in the next verse it was GOD WHO CREATED singular verb, singular pronouns.

ANY usage is significant in Scripture. There is NO misused word, no error, no contradiction, no lie, no falsehood in Scripture.

Correct so the fact that singular personal pronouns, singular verbs, and singular adjectives are used in relation to Yahweh - wouldn't that be significant to God being a singular being?

God gave us marriage to demonstrate to us His own union, so that we could see and experience a pale shadow of what He is.

God gave us marriage to demonstrate how he is 3 persons in one being? Where is that illustrated in scripture?

It seems that marriage is more demonstrative of Christ's commitment to the Church, embodying selfless love, mutual service, and spiritual unity with Christ and within the members of the body, the church.

Sure there is a difference between God's qualities that we share with Him and our own versions of those qualities. But that is not what I am talking about. God's "omni" traits are not what make Him God. That is another fallacy of yours. God would still be God if He didn't have those overarching, mind-blowing traits. <snip> God is God because He exists; He exists without support, influence, origin, end, etc. There is no other being in existence that exists without any qualifiers besides the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are God, one God, and there is no amount of emptying that can remove their deity.

I disagree. God is God because he exist and he is self existent and dependent upon anything - There is no other being in existence that exist on their own not dependent upon anything --- There is no other being in existence who is immortal, invisible, immutable, all powerful, all knowing, etc. ALL THESE THINGS MAKE GOD WHO HE IS.

The Son can do nothing without the Father - the Son is not self existent but dependent.

Is God not the ruler of all creation? Hmmm?

Not what I said ---- We were talking about submission not rulership and beside that Jesus is not ruler yet ---- all things are not in submission to him YET.
Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. (Hebrews 2:8)

Matt 28:19
2 Cor 13:14
John 16:13
John 14:26

And so?

You can claim whatever you want, but you then demonstrate that you do not, making your claim a lie. You claim to believe in Him, but then you deny who He says that He is. Not really a legitimate claim, now is it?

Jesus never said he was God.

John 1, 'nuff said.

Yea, I figured but yes, enough said.

Never said He was equal, I said He was equally God.

It seems that Jesus distinguishes between the servant and the master and between the messenger and the one who sent him.
Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
and that does not show equality nor equal to!!

The Son is God, so of course He has that authority.

Jesus, the Son of Man was given the athority to forgive sins.......

It is a sin to accept the acclamation, worship, praise, etc. that belongs only to God. Thomas bowed down and worshiped Jesus as God. If Jesus was not God, then it would have been a sin for Him to accept that praise and worship. The ONLY way that is not a sin is if it is true.

Why do you not use scripture to back up your claims? Thomas bowed down???? Where does it say Thomas bowed down? It doesn't.....you are adding to scripture.

And that punctuation is placed there by people who, like yourself, deny what Scripture says elsewhere about who Jesus is.

That's funny because the placed punctuation that is utilized can be read with a Trinitarian slant or/and a Unitarian slant because it makes the scriptures ambiguous.

Jesus was born with the fullness of God within Him. He was empowered by the Spirit to do miracles after His baptism, but He always possessed the full measure of God.

Jesus was empowered by God's Spirit before he was led in the wilderness to be tempted for 40 days and 40 nights at the beginning of his ministry. Jesus was not born with the fullness of God - he was anointed, baptized, filled with the holy spirit at his baptism. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

If you believed Scripture, then you would believe that Jesus is God along with the Father and Spirit.

I do believe scripture. Scripture does not make that claim.

Sure they did. But it was Satan's grasping first. He was the greatest, most wise, most beautiful of God's creations. And he thought that as great as he was he could force God to make him united with Them (the Father, Son, and Spirit). But he failed, and so was cast out of Heaven.

It would be nice if you could follow what was said previously: This is what you said : The word "grasp" also means "to hold onto". Jesus let go of His equality with the Father. And it wasn't Adam's desire to be equal with God, but Satan's desire with which he tricked Eve, and then Adam.... Which is why I said that about Adam.

As noted previously, Jesus was already the fullness of God before He left Heaven.

As noted previously, Jesus was filled with the fullness of God at his baptism.

Yes, the King of Glory and the Lord of Glory are the same. And both phrases describe God.

Nope.... See I know you couldn't find a parallel verse saying that God was the Lord of Glory because I also looked. So what you did was use the closest thing you could find .... and they do not mean the same and both do not refer to God.

You assume that the verse is talking about two different individuals; it is not. I have said many times that they are two different beings.

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: [2 Peter 1:1]

<snip> You are reading that as two different individuals. But it is not. Our God and our savior are one: Jesus. <snip>

<snip> Maybe it's because they are two different individuals, two different people. Our God, aka Yahweh and our Savior, aka the Son of God, Jesus Christ. <snip>

Isn't two different individuals - two beings?

 

[e v e]

I do read your comments if you reply to me. I see your point and yeah I see God as a distinct being from Jesus as well.

well not entirely separate though ... Christ is indeed deity...

 

[Doug Brents]

Hear O, Israel the LORD our God, the LORD is one. (echad - the numeral one)
God is the Father --- Jesus praying to his Father --- And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Jesus describes his Father as the ONLY true God. [John 17:3]
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? [Malachi 2:10]
God is the Father and God is the Holy Spirit - The LORD is great in Zion; he is exalted over all the peoples. Let them praise your great and awesome name! Holy is he! (Psalm 99:1-3) God is Spirit. (John 4:24a)
Correct, Jesus is not the Father and since he is not the Father and the Father is the one true God ---- Jesus is not God..

As I said, there is one God, but that doesn't mean one being.

I don't know how many times I have to tell you but my husband and I are NOT ONE BEING - We are TWO one male and one female. What makes my husband and I one is the act of intimacy shared between us.

Of course you and your husband are not one being, just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not one being. The act of sexual intercourse is not what makes you one. What makes you one is God, giving you a small, partial experience of the unity and connectedness that They experience.

What makes God God is THE FACT THAT HE IS all powerful, all knowing, every where present, invisible, immortal, etc.----THOSE ATTRIBUTES BELONG TO GOD ALONE.

You are making a leap of logic that is not valid. What you are saying is that because God has these attributes He is God, and if He didn't have those attributes then He wouldn't be God. But that is not accurate. He would still be God whether He had those attributes or not. He is God because He is God. He is omniscient because He is God. He is not God because He is omniscient.

God is not talking to himself here --- Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:5-9; and Isaiah 6:6-8 - In each we have the singular God/LORD speaking to someone else----clearly to persons other than himself. In two of the 'us' references Gen. 3:22 and Isaiah 6:6-8 - cherubim and seraphim are present and it's highly likely that God is speaking to them. It wouldn't be beyond impossible for Gen. 1:26 and Gen. 11:5-9 to also be God speaking to his heavenly host, to the angelic beings.
And they were there in the beginning when God laid the foundation of the earth - 'when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy' [Job 38:7]

It is irrelevant who else was there, angels, cherubim, etc. None of them matter, because none of them had/have the ability to create, and none of them are made in God's image. When God says, "make man in OUR image", the two who are discussing it MUST both have the same image, or it would not be "OUR" (a common, united image). The ones who are discussing this are Jesus and the Father, and possibly the Holy Spirit as well. They are the only beings who have the same image (the image of God).

God is never dependent upon anyone or anything.
Jesus is not eternal - lasting or existing forever --- HE DIED! --- he was raised to eternal life, he was given eternal life.

Jesus' HUMAN body died, but His spirit did not die (1 Pet 3:18-19). His spirit is eternal (Heb 13:8, Rev 22:13). He is the Creator (John 1:3, Col 1:16-17). He is God (Rev 1:8, 22:13).

 

[amazing grace]

As I said, there is one God, but that doesn't mean one being. Of course you and your husband are not one being, just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not one being. The act of sexual intercourse is not what makes you one. What makes you one is God, giving you a small, partial experience of the unity and connectedness that They experience.

Well, apparently 'a person' is NOT 'a being'.

Is not the doctrine of the Trinity - God exists as three co-equal, divine persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit YET HE IS ONE GOD? Then Jesus is not one being NOR one person --- talk about an oxymoron.

According to 1 Corinthians the act of intimacy is what makes a couple ONE : Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” He who is joined to a prostitute is parallel to the 'two becoming one flesh'.

You are making a leap of logic that is not valid. What you are saying is that because God has these attributes He is God, and if He didn't have those attributes then He wouldn't be God. But that is not accurate. He would still be God whether He had those attributes or not. He is God because He is God. He is omniscient because He is God. He is not God because He is omniscient.

How would he be God WITHOUT THOSE ATTRIBUTES? God does not only possesses these attributes (e.g., omniscience, omnipotence, love, holiness) --- these attributes are identical to his essential nature. God is his attributes. Therefore, removing supreme attributes removes the very definition and essence of God, reducing the concept to a being that is not God.

It is irrelevant who else was there, angels, cherubim, etc. None of them matter, because none of them had/have the ability to create, and none of them are made in God's image. When God says, "make man in OUR image", the two who are discussing it MUST both have the same image, or it would not be "OUR" (a common, united image). The ones who are discussing this are Jesus and the Father, and possibly the Holy Spirit as well. They are the only beings who have the same image (the image of God).

It is relevant when one is trying to read a Triune God into the text of Genesis 1:26.
No one says anyone else created.
God is having a discussion 'Let us create....our image' ..... He is not creating at this point he is talking about creating and he is talking to someone besides himself. There are no other persons existing IN GOD......
What is God's image? Is God Spirit? Are angels also spirit beings? There is your 'image of God' without having Almighty God, the Creator, talking to himself.

Jesus' HUMAN body died, but His spirit did not die (1 Pet 3:18-19). His spirit is eternal (Heb 13:8, Rev 22:13). He is the Creator (John 1:3, Col 1:16-17). He is God (Rev 1:8, 22:13).

Jesus died and was buried in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.
Revelations 1:18 - 'I died, and behold I am alive forevermore.' ..... Jesus was a mortal being, he died and was buried God raised him from the dead and Jesus received his immortal body. God gave Jesus immortality - he was not innately immortal.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, John 1:1-3, 14 does say that Jesus is God.

No it doesn't say that "Jesus is God." Actually, that is not a statement found anywhere in the Bible.

As for John 17:1-3, keep reading down through verse 5. "And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."
Jesus gave up the glory He had (the glory of God), to come to Earth and live as a human, and the Father gave that glory back to Him through His death and resurrection.

This does not undo that Father being the true God alone. Instead of trying to change what is written, work with what is written. The Father isn't Jesus, Jesus isn't the Father, so the Father being the true God alone cannot include Jesus. If you can accept that, you will be ready to graduate to more relatively advanced, yet simple, theological concepts.

If you only read verse 3, I can see how you would come to that conclusion. But reading all of Scripture, you must realize the lie that your conclusion becomes.

I have read the entire chapter and still came to the same conclusion. John 17:5 doesn't necessitate Jesus being God nor is that stated. The JWs are using the exact same verse to say Jesus pre-existed as an angel.

That verse proves that He was indeed a man. But it does not mean He is still a man, nor does it mean that He never was God.

The approach you are using is called an argument from silence. Without precedent or any statements regarding your story about Jesus, you say he is something no one who actually knew him talked about. Jesus never said he is God, but he said he is a man. Who are you to try to change that?

Can man see God and live? No (Exo 33:20). So Jesus has to be reduced (emptied) to an image of His former self so that everyone who saw Him didn't die instantly. And whether it is "by" or "through" Jesus that all things were made, the fact remains that EVERYTHING that was created was created by/through Him (meaning He cannot have been created).

You have just confirmed that seeing Jesus is not the same thing as seeing God. You are not helping your case much.

God is indeed a Spirit, but He can make Himself visible, just as He did for Moses when He passed by the cleft in the rock.

And Jesus is not a spirit and cannot make himself invisible.

Ok, checked my doctrine, and there are no differences between my doctrine and Scripture's statements that Jesus is God and responsible for all of Creation. But I'm not really sure what you mean by the bolded section above.

Well, you have not provided a convincing Scriptural argument to support your doctrines. What I see is no one repeated your conclusions in the Bible.

The KJV is OK, but it has some glaring issues with readability and word usage that we don't use today due to archaic language. The BSB is not really a translation, but a "thought for thought" bastardization of Scripture, but at least it is not a "paraphrase" of Scripture (like "the message") which are nothing more than a novel based on Scripture.

All of the Bibles have flaws, but the translations that do a good job with showing that Jesus isn't God are the ones that are most accurate.

 

[Runningman]

Rev.5:1-7 says nothing about the throne of Christ or the Lamb. Nor does Rev.6:16 or Rev.7:9-10. All 3 of those refer only to the "One who sits on the throne", which we know is the Father - but none of them speak of the throne of Christ or the Lamb.
So the only verse that supports your suggestion of there being 2 distinct thrones is Rev.3:21, and I certainly don't deny that.
However, your last reference, Rev.22:1-3 gives us new information.
It speaks of the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb in verse 1 - and again in verse 3, the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb. Here we see only one throne, but it's the throne of God AND of the Lamb.
Why does it speak earlier of two thrones, but here only one throne? We don't know for sure, but we do know that Jesus said "I and the Father are one."

Jesus plainly states that the Father "has given ALL judgment to the Son". He also said "He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man." John 5:22,27

Also Jesus plainly tells us that both believers and non-believers will be judged by Jesus at the same time - even in the same hour.
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." John 5:28-29

We see this same judgment in Matthew 25:31-46.

There appears to be only one judgment, which occurs "on the last day". Martha spoke of it in John 11:24 - "I know that he (Lazarus) will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Jesus Himself spoke of the last day several times - as the day of resurrection of all mankind, both good and evil.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 and John 12:48.

This is how we know that there will be no 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth because "the last day" means there will be no more days after that. The judgment day, the resurrection day, the day of the only rapture of the saints who are alive at that time, the 2nd coming of Christ - will all occur on the last day. No days will follow it.

You forgot to mention Revelation 5:1-7 where it says of Jesus "He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne." So Jesus approached a throne that is not his own throne. There is also Daniel 7:9 where the "Ancient of Days" took His seat and then after that in Daniel 7:13 the son of man approach the Ancient of Days. There are about 16-18 references of Jesus sitting at the "right hand of God" or to the right of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, meaning that if you want to find Jesus don't look on the throne, turn your head to the right more and you may see him sitting there. There is more than one throne, not even just two thrones, it gets more complicated than that.

Just when you think you have it pinned down to a throne or two, Jesus being the only one who was delegated to judge, the Bible also says the saints will judge the world (1 Corinthians 6:2) and in Matthew 19:28 Jesus explicitly told his 12 disciplines, they will sit on the 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

So what we can see here are examples of others performing judgement tasks that don't involve Jesus being the judge, contrary to the Bible saying in John 5:22 "Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son," because it isn't as simple as Jesus is the only judge and there are no exceptions to that. There is a specific context where Jesus is judging (2 Corinthians 5:10) and a specific context where God is judging (Romans 14:10) and contexts where neither God nor Jesus are judging, but rather saints are judging. This refers to delegated judgement or assigned judgement. The Father assigned judgement to Jesus (John 5:22,23) and Jesus assigned judgement to the saints (1 Cor. 6:2, Matt 9:28) so what we have here is a hierarchy which Jesus and everyone else being subordinate to God the Father.

 

[Runningman]

well not entirely separate though ... Christ is indeed deity...

Why?

 

[Doug Brents]

No it doesn't say that "Jesus is God." Actually, that is not a statement found anywhere in the Bible.

So your "bible" cuts out John 1? Hmm. Might want to get the FULL Scripture of God.

This does not undo that Father being the true God alone. Instead of trying to change what is written, work with what is written. The Father isn't Jesus, Jesus isn't the Father, so the Father being the true God alone cannot include Jesus. If you can accept that, you will be ready to graduate to more relatively advanced, yet simple, theological concepts.

Yes, it does prove that Jesus is God. He was God before He was incarnate, then He emptied Himself (of His power and glory, but not His deity) and became a man (still God), and now He is back in Heaven with all His power and glory restored, but still submissive to the Father.

I have read the entire chapter and still came to the same conclusion. John 17:5 doesn't necessitate Jesus being God nor is that stated. The JWs are using the exact same verse to say Jesus pre-existed as an angel.

Absolutely He preexisted Creation, but not as an angel. The angels are created beings, but all things that were created were created by/through Jesus, so He CANNOT be a created being.

Further, if the Father glorifies Jesus with Himself (the glory of God), and that is the same glory He had before His incarnation, then He had the glory of God before His incarnation, meaning He was God.

The approach you are using is called an argument from silence. Without precedent or any statements regarding your story about Jesus, you say he is something no one who actually knew him talked about. Jesus never said he is God, but he said he is a man. Who are you to try to change that?

Jesus did claim to be God, on several occasions.
He called Himself the I AM; a name of God (John 8:58).
He said He was one with, and equal to, the Father (John 10:30, 33).
He said He is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6, 22:13).
Jesus claimed to be the "Son of Man" which is a reference to Dan 7 where it says that the Son of Man will receive a Kingdom and His saints will receive that Kingdom and He is the Highest One (God).

You have just confirmed that seeing Jesus is not the same thing as seeing God. You are not helping your case much.
And Jesus is not a spirit and cannot make himself invisible.

Jesus was a man, fully human, while He was on Earth. We could see Him (if we were there) and not die. But we cannot see God (a Spirit) and not die. That doesn't mean that Jesus is not God. It just proves that He was really a man while on Earth. But His spirit was the Spirit of God that emptied Himself and became a man.

Well, you have not provided a convincing Scriptural argument to support your doctrines. What I see is no one repeated your conclusions in the Bible.

It is not me that is providing a "convincing argument". It is Scripture that provides the argument, and Satan that has you trying to disprove who Jesus really is.

All of the Bibles have flaws, but the translations that do a good job with showing that Jesus isn't God are the ones that are most accurate.

That is precisely backwards, and completely of Satanic origin.

 

[Runningman]

So your "bible" cuts out John 1? Hmm. Might want to get the FULL Scripture of God.

John 1 is an excellent chapter proving Jesus is a created man. It certainly says nothing about Jesus being God. Where did you see that?

Yes, it does prove that Jesus is God. He was God before He was incarnate, then He emptied Himself (of His power and glory, but not His deity) and became a man (still God), and now He is back in Heaven with all His power and glory restored, but still submissive to the Father.

I see that pointing out your errors only makes you dig your heels in even further. I have talked to enough of you people to know that pointing out your non-Biblical statements will not usher you toward the truth, but make you devise more clever ways to distort Scripture and that is not helpful.

So let's find something we can agree on. You said "now He is back in Heaven with all His power and glory restored, but still submissive to the Father."

So do you believe that Jesus is a member of a co-equal trinity who all possess the same mind, will, and power? How do you have Jesus submissive to the Father while still being equal to the Father?

Absolutely He preexisted Creation, but not as an angel. The angels are created beings, but all things that were created were created by/through Jesus, so He CANNOT be a created being.

I also don't believe Jesus is an angel. Why do you think Jesus pre-existed before creation?

Further, if the Father glorifies Jesus with Himself (the glory of God), and that is the same glory He had before His incarnation, then He had the glory of God before His incarnation, meaning He was God.

Sorry, this is a little too far off the deep end. The Bible doesn't ever say Jesus incarnated nor is it suggested.

Jesus did claim to be God, on several occasions.
He called Himself the I AM; a name of God (John 8:58).
He said He was one with, and equal to, the Father (John 10:30, 33).
He said He is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6, 22:13).
Jesus claimed to be the "Son of Man" which is a reference to Dan 7 where it says that the Son of Man will receive a Kingdom and His saints will receive that Kingdom and He is the Highest One (God).

None of these say that Jesus is God. Nor are they claims to deity.

Let's see if we can make some sense of this. Did you know other people in the Bible said "I am" too? Did you know that there are others who are one with the Father? Did you know the "beginning and end" refers to a starting and ending point, not a description of eternality?

Um, Jesus denied equality with God (John 14:28)

Um, Daniel 7 proves that Jesus that Jesus isn't the One on the throne again, proves he isn't God, proves he received his authority to receive that kingdom and rule with the other saints.

Jesus was a man, fully human, while He was on Earth. We could see Him (if we were there) and not die. But we cannot see God (a Spirit) and not die. That doesn't mean that Jesus is not God. It just proves that He was really a man while on Earth. But His spirit was the Spirit of God that emptied Himself and became a man.

The Bible says he is just like his brothers in every way. Fully human and not a god man hybrid or incarnate.

Hebrews 2
17For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonementh for the sins of the people.

It is not me that is providing a "convincing argument". It is Scripture that provides the argument, and Satan that has you trying to disprove who Jesus really is.

That is precisely backwards, and completely of Satanic origin.

Your arguments are Satanic and they have all been refuted using Scripture.