The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Doug Brents]

My point is that Jesus is made both Lord and Christ that I mention in my comment and that means he is not God.

That has no correlation to Him being God or not. Jesus is Lord, and Christ, and God all at the same time.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus is God, just as Peter was king. The Father is God just as Edmond was king. But "king" and "God" are not names, they are titles. Just as king Edmond can speak to king Peter and not be speaking to himself, God Jesus can speak to God the Father and not be speaking to Himself. They are separate persons, but still the same God.

And as Peter was High King of Narnia and his brother and sisters king and queens under but united to him, so the Father is greater and higher than the Son (Jesus), but they are still the same God.

King Edmond can speak to King Peter because they are actually TWO SEPARATE, DISTINCT PERSONS - TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. IOW, Peter was king and Edmond was king but not ONE KING as in the doctrine of the Trinity - ONE GOD = three persons yet ONE GOD.

Jesus is God, the Father is God = THE SAME ONE GOD!

 

[Doug Brents]

King Edmond can speak to King Peter because they are actually TWO SEPARATE, DISTINCT PERSONS - TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. IOW, Peter was king and Edmond was king but not ONE KING as in the doctrine of the Trinity - ONE GOD = three persons yet ONE GOD.

Jesus is God, the Father is God = THE SAME ONE GOD!

Edmond and Peter had the same kingship, the same kingdom, the same dominion. Yes, they were two different people, just as Jesus and the Father are different beings who have the same "Godhood", the same "Kingdom", the same "Dominion".

 

[Peterlag]

Never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood; He didn't.

He emptied Himself of His knowledge - He did not know things as a human that He knew as God.
He emptied Himself of His glory - He was in the form of God, and was responsible for Creation of all that was made, but became a human, a little lower than the angels (let alone God).
He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power - Everything He did miraculously was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, not His own power while He was human.
He emptied Himself of His authority - He surrendered His will and authority to the Father, becoming a servant with no authority over anything, even His own body and life.

God is Spirit, and so has no blood, royal or otherwise. Jesus only had blood after He came down from Heaven and became a man. Jesus was God in Heaven, responsible for creating everything that was created (angels, the universe, Satan, powers, principalities, etc.). He is the Christ/Messiah/Redeemer of all mankind because He surrendered Himself to the Father, and subjugated His will to the Father's. He did indeed humble Himself from what He was, God, and take on the role of a servant, a sacrifice.

There's nothing in the Bible that says Jesus emptied himself of his knowledge.

 

[Doug Brents]

There's nothing in the Bible that says Jesus emptied himself of his knowledge.

Was Jesus born with the full knowledge and understanding of Scripture. No. He grew in knowledge and in wisdom. We also know that Jesus, as a man, did not know when He would return. But as God, being outside of time, and knowing the end from the beginning, Jesus would have known. So He emptied Himself of that knowledge when He left Heaven.

 

[Runningman]

You are teaching me something new. Is this what they really believe? That God placed a yoke too heavy to bear on humanity and when they failed to meet His standards, He sent Himself to sacrifice Himself to appease His own wrath against the sin that He caused.

I have never seen any of them present it quite like how I did, but yeah if God provided laws to people that he knew they couldn't keep and Jesus is God incarnate of the same will, mind, and power as God then the Bible reads more like a stage performance. One of the loopholes in their story is that if God was sacrificed, yet God is immortal (meaning he can't die, ever, not even one time) then God didn't die for their sins, but rather what died for their sins is a human body, the same thing every other human has, which makes the sin sacrifice of Jesus unexceptional in trinitarian philosophy.

Trinitarianism sounds flowery, religious, and spiritual but it's quite dangerous.

 

[mikesw]

I have never seen any of them present it quite like how I did, but yeah if God provided laws to people that he knew they couldn't keep and Jesus is God incarnate of the same will, mind, and power as God then the Bible reads more like a stage performance. One of the loopholes in their story is that if God was sacrificed, yet God is immortal (meaning he can't die, ever, not even one time) then God didn't die for their sins, but rather what died for their sins is a human body, the same thing every other human has, which makes the sin sacrifice of Jesus unexceptional in trinitarian philosophy.

Trinitarianism sounds flowery, religious, and spiritual but it's quite dangerous.

Indeed knowledge of the Triune God is quite dangerous to the devil and deceivers.

 

[Peterlag]

I have never seen any of them present it quite like how I did, but yeah if God provided laws to people that he knew they couldn't keep and Jesus is God incarnate of the same will, mind, and power as God then the Bible reads more like a stage performance. One of the loopholes in their story is that if God was sacrificed, yet God is immortal (meaning he can't die, ever, not even one time) then God didn't die for their sins, but rather what died for their sins is a human body, the same thing every other human has, which makes the sin sacrifice of Jesus unexceptional in trinitarian philosophy.

Trinitarianism sounds flowery, religious, and spiritual but it's quite dangerous.

Perhaps more dangerous than we know since the enemy fights so hard to keep it going.

 

[Peterlag]

Was Jesus born with the full knowledge and understanding of Scripture. No. He grew in knowledge and in wisdom. We also know that Jesus, as a man, did not know when He would return. But as God, being outside of time, and knowing the end from the beginning, Jesus would have known. So He emptied Himself of that knowledge when He left Heaven.

The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture. Thus, you're working off your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions and calling it God's Word.

 

[Doug Brents]

The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture. Thus, you're working off your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions and calling it God's Word.

It is God's Word which tells us that Jesus emptied Himself. That is not human reasoning, but God telling us so. You can deny it all you want, but His Word is immutable and irrefutable. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't Truth.

 

[Peterlag]

It is God's Word which tells us that Jesus emptied Himself. That is not human reasoning, but God telling us so. You can deny it all you want, but His Word is immutable and irrefutable. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't Truth.

The Bible does not say Jesus emptied himself of knowledge or his Godhood.

 

[Alter2Ego]

John 4:23–24 does not come close at all to denying personal distinctions within God. It simply teaches that God is spirit and that true worship must be spiritual and grounded in truth, without addressing the question of divine persons at all. Divine Persons are addressed in hundreds of other areas that you continously ignore such as verses that speak about the Holy Spirit as “interceding” to the Father (Romans 8:26–27), or Jesus pouring out the Holy Spirit (John 15:26; Acts 2:33), or Jesus’ baptism.

I don’t have to rely on imported formulas as you do because John 1 itself explicitly declares that the Word was God and that the Word tabernacled among us as Jesus Christ, establishing both full Deity and real distinction without ambiguity.

synergy:

The holy spirit is not a person. It is something that is owned by Jehovah the Father, namely: Jehovah's active force or an extension of his power. Jehovah uses his holy spirit to get things done.

 

[Alter2Ego]

All 3 Persons appeared from the start in Genesis, as the father was there in the beginning, as was the Spirit, and the Son came in form like a man to speak to Abraham, be the Angel of the Lord etc

JesusFan:

The holy spirit is not a person, so your claim that "all 3 persons appeared" in Genesis is incorrect. The holy spirit is something that is owned by Jehovah God. It is an extension of Jehovah's power aka his active force.