Again, for you to see this as paganism is an injustice to the gospel writers and the prophets. Sure, they were seeking an end to paganism but that does not mean these prophets and gospel writers were pagans. Instead of freeing your mind from pagan ideas, you have turned that against the knowledge of God.
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Active Member
Yes your trinity is founded in paganism, not Scripture. Here is some material to see where the founders of your organization got their ideas from.
Marie Sinclair, Countess of Caithness, in her 1876 book Old Truths in a New Light, states: "It is generally, although erroneously, supposed that the doctrine of the Trinity is of Christian origin. Nearly every nation of antiquity possessed a similar doctrine. [The early Catholic theologian] St. Jerome testifies unequivocally, 'All the ancient nations believed in the Trinity'" (p. 382).
Notice how the following quotes document belief in a divine trinity in many regions and religions of the ancient world.
Sumeria
"The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu's share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods" (The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, 1994, pp. 54-55)Babylonia
"The ancient Babylonians recognised the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god—as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology, and the use of the equilateral triangle, also, as an emblem of such trinity in unity" (Thomas Dennis Rock, The Mystical Woman and the Cities of the Nations, 1867, pp. 22-23).India
"The Puranas, one of the Hindoo Bibles of more than 3,000 years ago, contain the following passage: 'O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.' The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva [or Shiva], becoming manifest to him, replied, 'Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one.'"Hence the triangle was adopted by all the ancient nations as a symbol of the Deity . . . Three was considered among all the pagan nations as the chief of the mystical numbers, because, as Aristotle remarks, it contains within itself a beginning, a middle, and an end. Hence we find it designating some of the attributes of almost all the pagan gods" (Sinclair, pp. 382-383).
Greece
"In the Fourth Century B.C. Aristotle wrote: 'All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods; for, as the Pythagoreans say, everything and all things are bounded by threes, for the end, the middle and the beginning have this number in everything, and these compose the number of the Trinity'" (Arthur Weigall, Paganism in Our Christianity, 1928, pp. 197-198).Egypt
"The Hymn to Amun decreed that 'No god came into being before him (Amun)' and that 'All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.' . . . This is a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon. Clearly, the concept of organic unity within plurality got an extraordinary boost with this formulation. Theologically, in a crude form it came strikingly close to the later Christian form of plural Trinitarian monotheism" (Simson Najovits, Egypt, Trunk of the Tree, Vol. 2, 2004, pp. 83-84).Other areas
Many other areas had their own divine trinities. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon and Adonis. The Phoenicians worshipped Ulomus, Ulosuros and Eliun. Rome worshipped Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto. In Germanic nations they were called Wodan, Thor and Fricco. Regarding the Celts, one source states, "The ancient heathen deities of the pagan Irish[,] Criosan, Biosena, and Seeva, or Sheeva, are doubtless the Creeshna [Krishna], Veeshnu [Vishnu], [or the all-inclusive] Brahma, and Seeva [Shiva], of the Hindoos" (Thomas Maurice, The History of Hindostan, Vol. 2, 1798, p. 171).https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...arian-gods-influenced-adoption-of-the-trinity
I see your gullibility
Obviously unrelated. That shares there are three gods. Duhhh. Not sure why you included Sumeria.
Failure #2 by runningman.
Another thing to note is that these so-called gods were given each a separate domain. The Triune God of Israel is over all.
Regarding India we have a third failure by runningman in his desperation to deny the Trinity...
This also has goddesses which then makes it a group of six and quite different from the Triune God of Israel
AI responds with this point:
I suppose runningman can find a source of Aristotle's original writing said to be quoted here.
Again we have a failure by runningman:
In the Leiden hymns, Amun, Ptah, and Re are regarded as a trinity who are distinct gods but with unity in plurality. "The three gods are one yet the Egyptian elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three." This unity in plurality is expressed in one text:
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun
We hardly need to look at these ones that runningman leaves as a list instead of with details.
so you must show that the christian writers of the second century (maybe just one) was influenced by these other cultures just to explain the deity of Christ shared by the gospels.
On the positive side, it is good you have an adversity toward the false gods being associated with the Triune God of Israel.
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Runningman
Active Member
No trinity in the bible, a trinity in pagan religions. You can't change it.
Maybe you can show what influenced John, Peter, Paul, Moses and others to share points that anticipate or reflect the Triune God and the deity of Christ. All you need is real evidence and arguments rather than stupid quotes from deceptive writers.
Runningman
Active Member
No one in the Bible ever spoke of a trinity god. Please show where that happened if that's what you're claiming.
All we need to show the unitarian is false is the deity of Christ in John 1. If unitarians have any real arguments, they have not yet shared those.
Runningman
Active Member
So do you have any examples the trinity in the Bible? Literally no one can find any, but I can find explicit examples of the Father being the only true God repeatedly. Why do you not just believe the Bible instead?
I just do not follow unitarian speculations. duhhhh.
If God expressed everything directly in the OT, there would be no need for the NT.
I try to make things simple for you. All you have to do is make a good argument against the deity of Christ. Then you do not have to consider the deeper things of God in the discussions.
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Runningman
Active Member
The trinity was created after the gospel spread to pagan nations. Actually, the fact that trinitarianism is polytheistic in nature why it was selected as a the state religion of the Roman empire instead of real Christianity which rejects pagan trinity gods.
can a force speak, think, create, indwell, convict, be grieved etc?
trinity doctrine was given to us from teaching and proclamation of the Apostles themselves
Runningman
Active Member
Source please.
Uh. There is not a significant time difference between the reach of the gospel to the nations after it was shared with the Jews. There is no obvious transition where Paul and John (as most obvious testifiers on this) were influenced by the pagan nations. The initial primary thing is that the deity of Christ appears already -- not just in some deeper study of the significance in subsequent years.
Of course for unitarians, it is easier to defer the argument from first and second century points about the deity of Christ to a supposed big change in the four century. Duhhh
Runningman
Active Member
Yes there is a significant time difference between when trinitarian doctrines first immerged and the creation of your god at the councils Nicaea and Constantinople in the 4th century. So we're talking about nearly 400 years after the fact of when Jesus church was made and when your church was made.
In Christianity, the Father is God alone as John 17:3 explicitly states. The fact that you still can't believe this makes you at odds with the teachings of Jesus.
that is so stupid. The concepts existed before the Nicaea councils. Anyhow, the only thing you need to concentrate on are your arguments against the testimony of scripture of the deity of Christ. The Trinitarian doctrine is far beyond your ability.
You do not need to address the Trinity doctrine. That is only explaining how the deity of Christ does not conflict with the Shema.
The earliest writers mention Jesus as God.
First, one may begin with the seven letters which Ignatius wrote on his way to martyrdom in Rome (around A.D. 115). Ignatius refers to Jesus Christ as theos about fourteen times.5 For example, he reminds the Ephesian church that their sufferings came only by “the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God.”6 NOtes 5 see Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1972), 39. 6 Ephesians 1.1. With the exception of Melito’s works, all the quotations in this study are based on the Ante-Nicene Fathers series (ANF). The translation of Melito’s works comes from Stuart G. Hall’s study Melito of Sardis: On Pascha and Fragments (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1979).
Jesus Christ As 'God' Before the Council of Nicea - Faith Pulpit
According to the popular historiography of various cults, the doctrine of the deity of Jesus Christ was "created" by the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325. For instance, the Restoration Church of God publishes a tract entitled "Who Is Jesus? Do the Creeds Tell Us the Truth About Him?" This…faith.edu
The unitarians have to rewrite history to make their novel, private, gnostic interpretations.
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Runningman
Active Member
There are no examples of Jesus being God in the Bible. Actually, that's a rather silly statement provided Jesus denied being God. Now, humans can be one of the gods (hard emphasis on a lowercase G) but not God in the same sense the Father is, as many are called god in the Bible, but for us Christians there is but one God, the Father. That's what the earliest Christians believed and the belief still carries on to this day. You just aren't of Jesus' sheepfold. You don't know who God is really.
you lose knowledge every time you post. You do not comprehend the simplest texts or you strive to use them to deny who Christ is.
That is also twisting Psalm 86. That passage is a rebuke and not even clear who God spoke this of. But a desperate unitarian will take anything that gives them a minuscule hope that their doctrine is acceptable.
I just showed what is found beyond just the gospels and Paul. We saw that second century writers agreed with the testimony of the deity of Christ. Does that register with unitarians? No. Their technique is to deny, deny, deny.
Alter2Ego
Active Member
JesusFan:
Since it is Jehovah's holy spirit--something that HE alone owns and controls--what you can't seem to get through your head is that it is Almighty God Jehovah himself (the Father) who is doing the speaking, thinking, creating, etc.
"And yet I have been full of power by the Spirit of Jehovah, And of judgment, and of might, To declare to Jacob his transgression, And to Israel his sin." (Micah 3:8 -- Young's Literal Translation)
"{24} O Jehovah, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them all: The earth is full of thy riches. {30} Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; And thou renewest the face of the ground." (Psalm 104:24 and 30 -- American Standard Version)
Runningman
Active Member
Please show where Jesus is God in the Bible then if that's what you think. I will correct your misunderstandings.
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