Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[amazing grace]

You sound like an immature Trinitarian? What changed. I haven't been pay attention.....

So who else has this "honor" you describe above?

Do you? It always comes "back" to this. Always.

I'm not a Trinitarian. The only one I know of who came from God and has the honor of being exalted to the right hand of the Majesty on High is Jesus of Nazareth the man approved of God, the Son of God, the Messiah.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not a Trinitarian. The only one I know of who came from God and has the honor of being exalted to the right hand of the Majesty on High is Jesus of Nazareth the man approved of God, the Son of God, the Messiah.

I know you're not. However, much of what you said is what Trinitarians believe.

So if there is only ONE, then why in the world are you saying what you're saying. Is God "ONE"?

 

[amazing grace]

I know you're not. However, much of what you said is what Trinitarians believe.

So if there is only ONE, then why in the world are you saying what you're saying. Is God "ONE"?

Yes, God is one being, one person --- not 3-in-one as Trinitarians believe. One means one, not 2,3,4,etc. Yes, you say you believe God is one yet he's really 3-in-one - three is not one - one is not three and never will be.

Jesus is the one sent ---- someone else had to send him ---- that someone who sent him is God therefore Jesus is not God.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. [John 8:42]

The one sent is not equal to the one who sent him: Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. [John 13:16]

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, God is one being, one person --- not 3-in-one as Trinitarians believe. One means one, not 2,3,4,etc. Yes, you say you believe God is one yet he's really 3-in-one - three is not one - one is not three and never will be.

Jesus is the one sent ---- someone else had to send him ---- that someone who sent him is God therefore Jesus is not God.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. [John 8:42]

The one sent is not equal to the one who sent him: Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. [John 13:16]

Same Jesus was crucified for claiming to be Son of God, to making himself equal to God

 

[amazing grace]

Same Jesus was crucified for claiming to be Son of God, to making himself equal to God

Who did Jesus claim to be? the Son of God, the Messiah.
It's simple - they didn't believe him.
And you are right there in his camp because you also believe that Jesus was 'making himself equal to God' which he never did.

 

[Runningman]

Will you finally concede that the translators were correct in translating John 17:3 as "the only true God"? By ditching your tendency to alter the verse, you will come closer to.the truth which is Monotheistic Trinitarianism.

This doesn't require you agreeing as the language and Bible can stand on its own two feet because you cannot change it. The words out of Jesus mouth were "Father... you, alone the true God..." in John 17:1-3. When will you bow to Jesus and believe? Jesus was not a trinitarian.

 

[Runningman]

Funny. You're alone... right?

Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

You know so very little.

You're more reasonable than @synergy so maybe we can get somewhere with you. Do you agree that the Father is the true God alone?

 

[civic]

Yes, God is one being, one person --- not 3-in-one as Trinitarians believe. One means one, not 2,3,4,etc. Yes, you say you believe God is one yet he's really 3-in-one - three is not one - one is not three and never will be.

Jesus is the one sent ---- someone else had to send him ---- that someone who sent him is God therefore Jesus is not God.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. [John 8:42]

The one sent is not equal to the one who sent him: Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. [John 13:16]

Yet the Bible says the man and woman who are 2 distinct persons are ONE flesh, the exact same word used in the Shema. This supports the Trinitarian view not the Unitarian.

Next fallacy

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, God is one being, one person --- not 3-in-one as Trinitarians believe. One means one, not 2,3,4,etc. Yes, you say you believe God is one yet he's really 3-in-one - three is not one - one is not three and never will be.

Jesus is the one sent ---- someone else had to send him ---- that someone who sent him is God therefore Jesus is not God.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. [John 8:42]

The one sent is not equal to the one who sent him: Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. [John 13:16]

Jesus was referencing his disciples in John 13:16. It wasn't about Jesus. Can you be intellectually honest with me in this conversation? Don't "play" these gotcha games. They don't work for you.

Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

So your problem is the word "Person"? I've meet many people that have a problem with the English word "Person". I don't usually fault them for it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're more reasonable than @synergy so maybe we can get somewhere with you. Do you agree that the Father is the true God alone?

Okay. We can try again. First admit what I posted has "monos" in the verse.

No. Monos isn't used the way you're trying to use it yourself. At least admit this and we can possibly get somewhere.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're more reasonable than @synergy so maybe we can get somewhere with you. Do you agree that the Father is the true God alone?

BTW. I've never had an issue with @synergy . We disagree on a few things but not when it comes to the necessity of Divinity/Deity of Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To deal with the English word "Person".....

1 Timothy 2:5εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς.


Look at the structure letter by letter:

• εἷς … θεός → “one … God”
• εἷς … μεσίτης → “one … mediator”
• θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων → “of God and of ἄνθρωποι” (the human race)
• then, right after the comma, the text drops the word ἄνθρωπος and immediately names Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς.

So the Greek text itself puts the word ἄνθρωπος in apposition to the mediator who stands between God and the human race — and that mediator is called ἄνθρωπος.


The same Greek word that is used for every human being in Matthew 4:4, Romans 3:28, and John 16:21 is now used for the one who is God’s chosen bridge to humanity.

 

[Runningman]

Okay. We can try again. First admit what I posted has "monos" in the verse.

No. Monos isn't used the way you're trying to use it yourself. At least admit this and we can possibly get somewhere.

Do you confess that Monos means alone? If we can work from an intellectually honest foundation I see there being progress. This is something synergy utterly refused to do, to his public shame and discredit. What will you say about monos?

 

[amazing grace]

Yet the Bible says the man and woman who are 2 distinct persons are ONE flesh, the exact same word used in the Shema. This supports the Trinitarian view not the Unitarian.

Next fallacy

Yes, the Bible does say 'a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'.
Are they still two human beings, a male and a female?
How do they become one flesh? through 'joining' to each other, through the act of intimacy. It is a literal fusion of the male and female into one person!!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you confess that Monos means alone? If we can work from an intellectually honest foundation I see there being progress. This is something synergy utterly refused to do, to his public shame and discredit. What will you say about monos?

Alone is an accurate English representation. The issue isn't translation. It is application.

You can be in a crowded room and be alone. Right?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, the Bible does say 'a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'.
Are they still two human beings, a male and a female?
How do they become one flesh? through 'joining' to each other, through the act of intimacy. It is a literal fusion of the male and female into one person!!!

It is more. There are multiple aspects of being "one". It can be true of having a child, but it can also be true of the union that creates that child.

"Unity/One" is a central aspect of Trinitarianism. It details a relationship that unique to the Father and the Son.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus was referencing his disciples in John 13:16. It wasn't about Jesus. Can you be intellectually honest with me in this conversation? Don't "play" these gotcha games. They don't work for you.

Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

So your problem is the word "Person"? I've meet many people that have a problem with the English word "Person". I don't usually fault them for it.

Jesus was talking to his disciples in John 13:16 but didn't that also apply to him? When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. [John 13:12-17] Wasn't Jesus God's servant? Wasn't Jesus SENT by God?

I don't consider that I have a problem.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus was talking to his disciples in John 13:16 but didn't that also apply to him? When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. [John 13:12-17] Wasn't Jesus God's servant? Wasn't Jesus SENT by God?

I don't consider that I have a problem.

Good... good. Reasoned. Reasonable. Will you remain that way......

Service isn't an indication of "rank". Do you have a husband or wife?

People often make this mistake. In more detailed evaluations of the Holy Trinity, these "come to light" as the conversation progresses. There is "much" to God. We can't "boil it down" like Unitarians try to simplify God.

There are differences/uniqueness in details.

So when you serve a friend, is your friend greater than you?

 

[amazing grace]

It is more. There are multiple aspects of being "one". It can be true of having a child, but it can also be true of the union that creates that child.

I responded directly to:

Yet the Bible says the man and woman who are 2 distinct persons are ONE flesh, the exact same word used in the Shema. This supports the Trinitarian view not the Unitarian.

Next fallacy

"Unity/One" is a central aspect of Trinitarianism. It details a relationship that unique to the Father and the Son.

Yes, unity/one is a central aspect of Trinitarianism - a fusion of 3 into one.

I agree that Jesus and God had a unique Father/Son relationship but that relationship did not fuse them together into one. The same as the intimate act of a husband and wife does not literally fuse them together.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I responded directly to:


Yes, unity/one is a central aspect of Trinitarianism - a fusion of 3 into one.

I agree that Jesus and God had a unique Father/Son relationship but that relationship did not fuse them together into one. The same as the intimate act of a husband and wife does not literally fuse them together.

I know who you responded to. Does that matter? This is an open community.

Trinitarians don't "fuse" them into One like you're describing. I asked you a few questions. Do you mind answering them?