Runningman
Active Member
No. Jesus, Jesus plainly taught the Father is the Spirit. It's pretty bad that Chat GPT understands what you are unable to. Try to focus more and you'll get it.
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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synergy
Active Member
I asked ChatGPT if there exists a Bible verse contained within any English translation that explicitly states 'The Father is the Spirit"? This is what it said:
So stop promoting heresies that spring forward only from your imagination.
Peterlag
Active Member
The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason.
Peterlag
Active Member
A guy told me today that God was praying to Himself if there was any way to not go through with it because God really did not want to do it. But knew He had to.
I did not figure you had any intelligent guys around you.
Runningman
Active Member
John 4:23,24 comes pretty close. It's inferred by the text without importing in your private interpretation of a third person. No second or third person of a "trinity" is inferred or implied about God.
Speaking of things the Bible doesn't say, the Bible never says "God is three persons" or any sort of other statement in line with trinitarian philosophy.
So stop promoting heresies that spring forward only from your imagination.
Runningman
Active Member
Yeah. That's the kind of wacky conclusions they are forced to resort to in order for it remain a consistent narrative. In their religion, their god placed a yoke too heavy to bear on humanity and when they inevitably failed to meet his standards, he sent himself to sacrifice himself to appease his own wrath against the sin that he was 110% responsible or else he would eternally punish those who couldn't meet his own standards, and he did it all in advance with prior knowledge of how it'd all play out, instead of just admitting fault and responsibility he blamed everyone else instead. Not the kind of religion and god we want to get involved with.
In real Christianity, it's an entirely different explanation of who the real God is, but they aren't ready to hear it yet.
synergy
Active Member
John 4:23–24 does not come close at all to denying personal distinctions within God. It simply teaches that God is spirit and that true worship must be spiritual and grounded in truth, without addressing the question of divine persons at all. Divine Persons are addressed in hundreds of other areas that you continously ignore such as verses that speak about the Holy Spirit as “interceding” to the Father (Romans 8:26–27), or Jesus pouring out the Holy Spirit (John 15:26; Acts 2:33), or Jesus’ baptism.
I don’t have to rely on imported formulas as you do because John 1 itself explicitly declares that the Word was God and that the Word tabernacled among us as Jesus Christ, establishing both full Deity and real distinction without ambiguity.
Doug Brents
Active Member
No, He was not praying to Himself. Do you remember in "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe" when Aslan made Peter, Susan, Edmond, and Lucy all kings and queens of Narnia? They were all rulers, all kings or queens, ruling the same kingdom at the same time. But that didn't make Peter the same person as Edmond. When Edmond spoke to Peter, he was not speaking to himself. Jesus is a separate person from the Father, but they are still the same God, the same Creator, the same Ruler of all that is.
Peterlag
Active Member
You are teaching me something new. Is this what they really believe? That God placed a yoke too heavy to bear on humanity and when they failed to meet His standards, He sent Himself to sacrifice Himself to appease His own wrath against the sin that He caused.
Doug Brents
Active Member
It doesn't matter what "orthodox" anything has "rejected". It is taught, although not explained, in Scripture that Jesus emptied Himself when He left Heaven and came to Earth to become a man. It is quite clear that God (Jesus) left His knowledge in Heaven, because as a child He grew in wisdom, stature, and favor with God (the Father) and mankind (Luke 2:52). It is also clear that He did nothing by His own power, but all the miracles and supernatural knowledge He had came through the Spirit (who is also God).
Peterlag
Active Member
Yes, we can ask Jesus Christ for stuff...
Jesus spent time telling his disciples about the new relationship he would have with them after he would be resurrected (John 14:1-4, 18, 28; 16:5-7, 16). For example, he told them they could ask him for things, that he would not leave them as orphans, and he would now call them “friends” not servants. One of the clearest points of Scripture that supports prayer to Jesus is John 14:14. Jesus taught “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” in John 14:14 being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that scribes left the word “me” out of the text or changed “me” to “the Father” and this explains why “me” is not in the King James Version because the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the word “me” in it. However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it. Jesus telling his disciples that they could ask him for anything after his resurrection certainly fits with the scope of Scripture, since Jesus knew that he was about to be given great authority as the Son of God. Jesus telling his disciples they could ask him for things after his ascension is clearly seen in both Acts and the Epistles.
Another reason to have fellowship with Jesus and be able to ask him for stuff is because he’s now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in Heaven and on Earth (Matthew 28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3). The word “fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it’s used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).
Jesus told his followers they are his “friends” [philos] (John 15:13-15). He emphasizes his point by saying that slaves and servants do not know what the Lord does, but friends do. What Jesus said has huge implications for Christians, because Jesus has opened the door for us to be “friends” with him. One of the hallmarks of genuine friendship is that we can ask friends for things. It’s quite inconceivable that Jesus would say that those disciples who followed him would be his “friends” but could not be in touch with him. Regular and intimate communication is part of friendship, and it makes perfect sense that we can ask our Lord, Head, Shepherd, and Friend, for whatever we need.
Fellowshipping with Jesus Christ deals with “knowing” him (Philippians 3:8, 10). In Philippians, Paul wrote about knowing Jesus, and there is a huge difference between “knowing about” Jesus and actually knowing him. Paul did not just want to “know about” Jesus. In fact, he said he counted any position he could claim in the world to be just dung compared to knowing Christ. Really knowing someone involves personally interacting with the person. In fact, it’s difficult to imagine how we could really “know” Christ without personal interaction with him. Christians can personally interact with the Lord Jesus Christ, via the gift of the holy spirit, and part of that interaction certainly includes feeling free to ask him for stuff.
Jesus spent time telling his disciples about the new relationship he would have with them after he would be resurrected (John 14:1-4, 18, 28; 16:5-7, 16). For example, he told them they could ask him for things, that he would not leave them as orphans, and he would now call them “friends” not servants. One of the clearest points of Scripture that supports prayer to Jesus is John 14:14. Jesus taught “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” in John 14:14 being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that scribes left the word “me” out of the text or changed “me” to “the Father” and this explains why “me” is not in the King James Version because the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the word “me” in it. However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it. Jesus telling his disciples that they could ask him for anything after his resurrection certainly fits with the scope of Scripture, since Jesus knew that he was about to be given great authority as the Son of God. Jesus telling his disciples they could ask him for things after his ascension is clearly seen in both Acts and the Epistles.
Another reason to have fellowship with Jesus and be able to ask him for stuff is because he’s now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in Heaven and on Earth (Matthew 28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3). The word “fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it’s used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).
Jesus told his followers they are his “friends” [philos] (John 15:13-15). He emphasizes his point by saying that slaves and servants do not know what the Lord does, but friends do. What Jesus said has huge implications for Christians, because Jesus has opened the door for us to be “friends” with him. One of the hallmarks of genuine friendship is that we can ask friends for things. It’s quite inconceivable that Jesus would say that those disciples who followed him would be his “friends” but could not be in touch with him. Regular and intimate communication is part of friendship, and it makes perfect sense that we can ask our Lord, Head, Shepherd, and Friend, for whatever we need.
Fellowshipping with Jesus Christ deals with “knowing” him (Philippians 3:8, 10). In Philippians, Paul wrote about knowing Jesus, and there is a huge difference between “knowing about” Jesus and actually knowing him. Paul did not just want to “know about” Jesus. In fact, he said he counted any position he could claim in the world to be just dung compared to knowing Christ. Really knowing someone involves personally interacting with the person. In fact, it’s difficult to imagine how we could really “know” Christ without personal interaction with him. Christians can personally interact with the Lord Jesus Christ, via the gift of the holy spirit, and part of that interaction certainly includes feeling free to ask him for stuff.
Peterlag
Active Member
Not only is it not clear, but it is not even mentioned anywhere in Scripture that Jesus emptied himself when he left Heaven and came to Earth to become a man.
Doug Brents
Active Member
This is the first post you have made that contains nothing really wrong in it. You still hint at Jesus not being God, just being God's right hand man (which is obviously false). But this whole post contains nothing that addresses the OP, or in any way supports the title of the thread. What was your point?
Doug Brents
Active Member
Phil 2:5-7 - "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men."
Your assertion is refuted again by Scripture. Care to try again?
amazing grace
Active Member
The bad thing is we are talking about a movie! Edmond wasn't the same person as Peter nor was Peter the same person as Edmond ----
So:
EXACTLY!!! Jesus being God and the Father being the same person, i.e. God then he prayed to himself.
Peterlag
Active Member
There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.
What did Jesus empty himself from?
What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.
Peterlag
Active Member
My point is that Jesus is made both Lord and Christ that I mention in my comment and that means he is not God.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Jesus is God, just as Peter was king. The Father is God just as Edmond was king. But "king" and "God" are not names, they are titles. Just as king Edmond can speak to king Peter and not be speaking to himself, God Jesus can speak to God the Father and not be speaking to Himself. They are separate persons, but still the same God.
And as Peter was High King of Narnia and his brother and sisters king and queens under but united to him, so the Father is greater and higher than the Son (Jesus), but they are still the same God.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Never said He emptied Himself of His Godhood; He didn't.
He emptied Himself of His knowledge - He did not know things as a human that He knew as God.
He emptied Himself of His glory - He was in the form of God, and was responsible for Creation of all that was made, but became a human, a little lower than the angels (let alone God).
He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power - Everything He did miraculously was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, not His own power while He was human.
He emptied Himself of His authority - He surrendered His will and authority to the Father, becoming a servant with no authority over anything, even His own body and life.
God is Spirit, and so has no blood, royal or otherwise. Jesus only had blood after He came down from Heaven and became a man. Jesus was God in Heaven, responsible for creating everything that was created (angels, the universe, Satan, powers, principalities, etc.). He is the Christ/Messiah/Redeemer of all mankind because He surrendered Himself to the Father, and subjugated His will to the Father's. He did indeed humble Himself from what He was, God, and take on the role of a servant, a sacrifice.
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