The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Doug Brents]

No Jesus did not have all power and authority before God gave it to him.

Then of what did Jesus empty Himself before He left Heaven?

And if Jesus is God and he emptied himself of his divine preogatives as God at that point he quit being God which is also contrary to what others have said - Jesus never quit being God.

Jesus never ceased to be God, that is true. But the fact that He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power, His glory, His knowledge, His omnipresence, etc. does not mean that He ceased to be God. He had all those things, and laid them down of His own free will. They were not stripped from Him.

Jesus was not eternal...... Jesus was born and Jesus died - God raised him from the dead thus Jesus became a life giving spirit --

Jesus was always the LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He is the source of all life and of everything that is (John 1:3). The human manifestation of Jesus was born, and died. But that is not His Spirit, which preceded creation.

Because Jesus was a human mortal being with a physical human body that could and did die.
Jesus' spirit did not come from Heaven before his birth - a human being has a natural, physical body first before having a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 14:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory.
14:43 It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
14:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
14:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
14:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

Are you saying that God is not Jesus' Father?

I am saying that God (the Father) is not the parent of Jesus. The Father is not Jesus' progenitor.

Are you saying that Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit the power of the Most High?

Not at all. Jesus' human form was indeed conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.

You believe that Jesus literally existed before he was conceived - I believe he preexisted in the foreknowledge, in the mind and plan of God.

Yes, I believe, as Scripture says, that Jesus literally existed with the Father as God in Heaven before He was conceived in Mary.

Jesus knew that he had come from God - that God was his Father - and he knew that when he was resurrected he would be exalted to the right hand of God his Father.....

The reason that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all humanity is the reason stated in Romans 5 and elsewhere in scripture. It is not because he was infinite and eternal .... an infinite and eternal being cannot die for the sins of mankind!!!

It can if it empties itself of it eternal, infinite nature, and submits itself to being a mortal human (which is exactly what Jesus did).

Jesus had a beginning Matthew and Luke record Jesus beginning and he had an end - his death on the cross which made salvation available to each and every person in the world and God raised him from the dead and highly exalted him to his own right hand --- That is our hope of resurrection and new life in the age to come.

If Jesus had an end, then He cannot be our savior, for He is still in the ground (1 Cor 15:14-19) and our faith is in vain. And Jesus did not have His beginning when He was born (or even when He was conceived) because He came from Heaven before that, and He existed in Heaven before that, and He was the source of all creation before that.

 

[mikesw]

Scripture does not teach God as a Triune being, person, etc. No one has yet produced a scripture that clearly and succinctly presents their case. Go ahead famous words of yours --- hyperliteralist!!! One would at least expect a FEW scriptures that clearly and succinctly presented their doctrine.

Really? The unitarian has to neglect obvious meaning for some hidden message. The only thing that was required to expose the unitarian misconception was showing the preexistent One who became incarnate. John does that. Jesus is shown pre-existing in continuity. Unitarians cannot erase enough scripture to make their arguments stick.

If preexistence was not the author's intention in John 1 --- then no one is a liar.
I believe the author of John says that the 'Word' was in the beginning with God just as wisdom was in the beginning with God.
Jesus is the Son of God ---- He is not as old as God his Father.

oh wow. an old god and a younger god? Not sure how one arrives at that.

No one skips verses --- there was no private doctrine created ---- Isaiah did not lie just as John did not lie.

oh my. you missed the realization that the logos in John builds upon and corrects the logos of Philo and the Greek philosophers who identified a conscious co-creator. John adds more specifically the preexistent One who became incarnate. If John meant wisdom, then he would have inserted wisdom there. John would have used sophias instead of logos so as to follow Psalm 8 directly. It takes too much reinterpretation and distortion to be a unitarian.

 

[amazing grace]

Then of what did Jesus empty Himself before He left Heaven?

Do you not understand that Jesus was conceived? He wasn't in heaven before his conception.

Jesus never ceased to be God, that is true. But the fact that He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power, His glory, His knowledge, His omnipresence, etc. does not mean that He ceased to be God. He had all those things, and laid them down of His own free will. They were not stripped from Him.
Jesus was always the LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He is the source of all life and of everything that is (John 1:3). The human manifestation of Jesus was born, and died. But that is not His Spirit, which preceded creation.

The 'Word' was the source of EVERYTHING ---- WHAT GOD SPOKE ---- God's spoken word CREATED!!!! By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]

Do you just not understand scripture? Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. [1 Cor. 15:45,46] Jesus became was made a life giving spirit through his resurrection.

It's not the spiritual that is first -- it is not the spiritual body that is FIRST so Jesus could not have existed as a SPIRIT FIRST. It's the natural body, the physical body that is first then the spiritual body.

I am saying that God (the Father) is not the parent of Jesus. The Father is not Jesus' progenitor.

Not at all. Jesus' human form was indeed conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.

So Jesus really wasn't an actual human being just a 'body' which God inhabited? God was actually in Mary's womb for 9 months and Mary took care of God as a baby when He was born? OKAAAAAAY! That totally destroys scripture.

Yes, I believe, as Scripture says, that Jesus literally existed with the Father as God in Heaven before He was conceived in Mary.

Scripture does not say that Jesus literally existed with God before he was conceived. But he was foreknown in the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. [Acts 2:22-24]
but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot; He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you; who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:19-21]

It can if it empties itself of it eternal, infinite nature, and submits itself to being a mortal human (which is exactly what Jesus did).
If Jesus had an end, then He cannot be our savior, for He is still in the ground (1 Cor 15:14-19) and our faith is in vain. And Jesus did not have His beginning when He was born (or even when He was conceived) because He came from Heaven before that, and He existed in Heaven before that, and He was the source of all creation before that.

OMGosh ----- Your lack of understanding actually HURTS - your deterioration of the scripture actually HURTS.

IF JESUS WASN'T RESURRECTED then you faith is in vain.......IF JESUS NEVER DIED then why resurrect HIM?
Jesus DIED. Jesus WAS BURIED and was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus WAS RESURRECTED BY GOD AND HIGHLY EXALTED because Jesus accomplished what God his Father SENT HIM TO DO. AND GOD SENT HIM THROUGH CONCEPTION AND BIRTH! HE WAS RESURRECTED and BECAME A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He WAS RAISED in HIS SPIRITUAL BODY........All of which scripture clearly and succinctly claims!
I can't believe you do not recognize that if Jesus Christ did not actually die, you have no sacrifice ----

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [Romans 5:7-9]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. [Romans 3:23-25a]

 

[mikesw]

haha response to thread 1002

That is not a very intelligent argument against the deity of Christ points I shared in how John 1 formed.

 

[mikesw]

Do you not understand that Jesus was conceived? He wasn't in heaven before his conception.

Duh. No one says there was a physical body of Jesus in heaven. I'm not sure how you challenge something that no one is really saying. You should know that the discussion of the preexisting One who became incarnate is not easily expressed.

The 'Word' was the source of EVERYTHING ---- WHAT GOD SPOKE ---- God's spoken word CREATED!!!! By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]

You miss the basis of John 1 as a response and correction to Greek philosophical ideas of logos and similarly that of Philo.

Do you just not understand scripture? Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. [1 Cor. 15:45,46] Jesus became was made a life giving spirit through his resurrection.

It's not the spiritual that is first -- it is not the spiritual body that is FIRST so Jesus could not have existed as a SPIRIT FIRST. It's the natural body, the physical body that is first then the spiritual body.

Uh. That is the context Jesus created by his resurrection. That is not a statement denying the metaphysical preexistence of the One who became incarnate. I see how confusion builds in the mind of the unitarian.

So Jesus really wasn't an actual human being just a 'body' which God inhabited? God was actually in Mary's womb for 9 months and Mary took care of God as a baby when He was born? OKAAAAAAY! That totally destroys scripture.

Even Alter2Ego speaks of spirit persons in heaven who come into the body through the pregnancy and birthing -- not that the doctrine is correct but it blows away that unitarian theory through self-contradiction. In John 1 we see that the Word was God but continued existence through incarnation. If you know more metaphysical possibilities and restrictions than everyone else, then you might start having an argument --but not a convincing one.

Scripture does not say that Jesus literally existed with God before he was conceived. But he was foreknown in the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. [Acts 2:22-24]
but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot; He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you; who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:19-21]

OMGosh ----- Your lack of understanding actually HURTS - your deterioration of the scripture actually HURTS.

IF JESUS WASN'T RESURRECTED then you faith is in vain.......IF JESUS NEVER DIED then why resurrect HIM?
Jesus DIED. Jesus WAS BURIED and was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus WAS RESURRECTED BY GOD AND HIGHLY EXALTED because Jesus accomplished what God his Father SENT HIM TO DO. AND GOD SENT HIM THROUGH CONCEPTION AND BIRTH! HE WAS RESURRECTED and BECAME A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He WAS RAISED in HIS SPIRITUAL BODY........All of which scripture clearly and succinctly claims!
I can't believe you do not recognize that if Jesus Christ did not actually die, you have no sacrifice ----

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [Romans 5:7-9]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. [Romans 3:23-25a]

Really. You make a mere man's martyrdom into something that gives righteousness through his blood. Nah. It is that Jesus pre-exists as the One with God. I guess those verses just do not make sense to a unitarian.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus was indeed born a man, but He did not begin to exist at His birth.
The eternal Word did not vanish, change, or stop being God. He took on a human nature.

Scripture says, “The Word became flesh” (John 1:14) ... not that the Word stopped being God.
This is called the Hypostatic Union: one Person (the Son) with two natures, fully God and fully man.

You should study it for it might clarify much for you.

Birth applies to His human nature, not His divine nature.
The Son eternally exists as God and was temporally born as man.

As Paul states, “In Him all the fullness of Deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2:9).

Jesus is not a man who later became God, nor God who turned into a man —
He is God the Son who assumed humanity.

He was born. People born do not exist before they are born.

 

[mikesw]

He was born. People born do not exist before they are born.

That is an argument of familiarity. Of course the concept we recognize as the default is that people do not exist until conception. To apply this to Jesus, it is best to recognize that God can do things beyond common nature. This is not to say Jesus pre-existed but only to say that the Logos pre-existed and became flesh, as John shares. So Jesus was born but he pre-exists as the One called the Word in John 1. Rejecting that is more like being a continuation of the Sadducee beliefs.

 

[amazing grace]

Duh. No one says there was a physical body of Jesus in heaven. I'm not sure how you challenge something that no one is really saying. You should know that the discussion of the preexisting One who became incarnate is not easily expressed.

yeah, it's not easy to express something that is not true.

You miss the basis of John 1 as a response and correction to Greek philosophical ideas of logos and similarly that of Philo.

Thanks but I miss nothing of John 1 because I know that the author of John is not going to come in a write a gospel in complete contradiction of the rest of scripture i.e. a Messiah who is God ---- That God is his own anointed Jewish king and Messiah.

Uh. That is the context Jesus created by his resurrection. That is not a statement denying the metaphysical preexistence of the One who became incarnate. I see how confusion builds in the mind of the unitarian.

That is a teaching Paul is giving concerning the resurrection in relation to Jesus and in relation to humanity.

Even Alter2Ego speaks of spirit persons in heaven who come into the body through the pregnancy and birthing -- not that the doctrine is correct but it blows away that unitarian theory through self-contradiction. In John 1 we see that the Word was God but continued existence through incarnation. If you know more metaphysical possibilities and restrictions than everyone else, then you might start having an argument --but not a convincing one.

Well, my Jesus, my Messiah is more than just an impersonal piece of flesh.

Really. You make a mere man's martyrdom into something that gives righteousness through his blood. Nah. It is that Jesus pre-exists as the One with God. I guess those verses just do not make sense to a unitarian.

I haven't said anything that is not written in scripture.

But thanks for your opinion.

 

[Peterlag]

Let's talk about the Holy Spirit...

• The "Holy Spirit" is never worshiped. Why not?

• If the "Spirit of truth" in John 14:17 is a person, then the "Spirit of error" in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. Does that make sense?

• In the opening of the New Testament Epistles, every one of them mentions God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, but not one mentions the "Holy Spirit"... I wonder why.

• The "Holy Spirit" is clearly said to be given by God to men. A divine "person" cannot be given by another divine person because to be given is to be under the authority of another. Does anyone see a problem here?

• John 7:39 says the "Holy Spirit" was not yet given, and in Acts 1:4 and 5 Jesus tells his disciples to wait for it. If the "Holy Spirit" is a person, and was present in the Old Testament, then how is it possible for Him to be spoken of as "not yet given"... or for that matter how a gift of a person is even possible?

 

[FreeInChrist]

He was born. People born do not exist before they are born.

Why do you insist that Jesus was simply a normal man with nothing special about him Charlie?

Christ Jesus was never a normal man, nor was he born to live a normal life.

So why do you assume that God Yahweh to be incapable of taking from his throne one who not only was around before Jesus was around, but at the same time Yahweh stipulated this one would live for a period of time as a mortal man? Oy veh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus was born because He chose to become what He already was not .... human ....while never ceasing to be what He always was ....God.

That is the Incarnation. That is the Gospel.

Charlie, your statement is only true of ordinary humans ....and Scripture explicitly says Jesus is not an ordinary human.

You keep arguing as if Jesus must fit the rules of created men, while the Bible says He existed before creation and then became a man.

If Jesus did not exist before His birth, then these statements are false:
And that is why “people born do not exist before they are born” does not apply to Jesus.

Where do you fall in this Charlie?
“Was Jesus telling the truth when He said He existed before Abraham and before the world began?”

Yes or No????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Peterlag]

Why do you insist that Jesus was simply a normal man with nothing special about him Charlie?

Christ Jesus was never a normal man, nor was he born to live a normal life.

So why do you assume that God Yahweh to be incapable of taking from his throne one who not only was around before Jesus was around, but at the same time Yahweh stipulated this one would live for a period of time as a mortal man? Oy veh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus was born because He chose to become what He already was not .... human ....while never ceasing to be what He always was ....God.

That is the Incarnation. That is the Gospel.

Charlie, your statement is only true of ordinary humans ....and Scripture explicitly says Jesus is not an ordinary human.

You keep arguing as if Jesus must fit the rules of created men, while the Bible says He existed before creation and then became a man.

If Jesus did not exist before His birth, then these statements are false:
And that is why “people born do not exist before they are born” does not apply to Jesus.

Where do you fall in this Charlie?
“Was Jesus telling the truth when He said He existed before Abraham and before the world began?”

Yes or No????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I never said Jesus Christ was just a normal man or a mere man. Those are trinitarian words.

 

[mikesw]

I never said Jesus Christ was just a normal man or a mere man. Those are trinitarian words.

not sure how you dismiss the typical physicality of Jesus.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I never said Jesus Christ was just a normal man or a mere man. Those are trinitarian words.

No Trin ever said that because No Trin would have thought such

 

[synergy]

I never said Jesus Christ was just a normal man or a mere man. Those are trinitarian words.

If Jesus is not a just a normal man nor God then what is he????

 

[civic]

What would be on the label of the package of my blood if I gave some to the Red Cross?

1.) Father blood
2.) Uncle blood
3.) Son blood
4.) Human blood

And you are not God who died for sin. Jesus is God and its Gods own blood.

Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

 

[amazing grace]

not sure how you dismiss the typical physicality of Jesus.

No Trin ever said that because No Trin would have thought such

If Jesus is not a just a normal man nor God then what is he????

Jesus Christ is the human Son of God, God's Christ, the one God sent into the world via a miraculous conception through Mary. A mere man?? No other human being was brought into the world through a virgin birth.
A young boy who grew in stature and in wisdom speaking with the leadership within the temple learning and teaching at the same time! A man whom God anointed with His Spirit. A man in whom the Spirit of God dwelled without measure. A man who ALWAYS did the will of God His Father. A man who was despised and rejected by his own people. A man who cried out in anguish for some other way to redeem mankind -- “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” A man who was oppressed and stricken yet he opened not his mouth like a Lamb let to the slaughter pouring out his soul to death, the humiliation of death on the cross ---- None of the above to me sounds like a MERE MAN but an AMAZING human being, a GREAT man of God.....who gave his life so that others could rest assured in their salvation and in their hope of eternal life.

And you are not God who died for sin. Jesus is God and its Gods own blood.

Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

God cannot die. An impersonal piece of flesh did not hang on that cross for your sins......A mortal human being, your brother died for YOU! YOU GET IT!! God did not owe himself the price for the wages of sin --- humanity OWED God the wages of sin -----therefore a human being, not God covered with a piece of flesh, had to die.

Keep using those scripture known for their textual variant. They are ambiguous and mean nothing show me a verse where God shed his blood that reads ---- God shed his blood for the remission of sins. Try reading your footnotes in your Bible every once in a while----I have one which reads: Or with the blood of his Own . . . meaning 'with the blood of his OWN SON.'

And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [Matthew 26:27,28]

 

[civic]

Jesus Christ is the human Son of God, God's Christ, the one God sent into the world via a miraculous conception through Mary. A mere man?? No other human being was brought into the world through a virgin birth.
A young boy who grew in stature and in wisdom speaking with the leadership within the temple learning and teaching at the same time! A man whom God anointed with His Spirit. A man in whom the Spirit of God dwelled without measure. A man who ALWAYS did the will of God His Father. A man who was despised and rejected by his own people. A man who cried out in anguish for some other way to redeem mankind -- “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” A man who was oppressed and stricken yet he opened not his mouth like a Lamb let to the slaughter pouring out his soul to death, the humiliation of death on the cross ---- None of the above to me sounds like a MERE MAN but an AMAZING human being, a GREAT man of God.....who gave his life so that others could rest assured in their salvation and in their hope of eternal life.

God cannot die. An impersonal piece of flesh did not hang on that cross for your sins......A mortal human being, your brother died for YOU! YOU GET IT!! God did not owe himself the price for the wages of sin --- humanity OWED God the wages of sin -----therefore a human being, not God covered with a piece of flesh, had to die.

Keep using those scripture known for their textual variant. They are ambiguous and mean nothing show me a verse where God shed his blood that reads ---- God shed his blood for the remission of sins. Try reading your footnotes in your Bible every once in a while----I have one which reads: Or with the blood of his Own . . . meaning 'with the blood of his OWN SON.'

And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [Matthew 26:27,28]

Where does the bible say:

God cannot die ?

Please quote the verse verbatim

 

[synergy]

Jesus Christ is the human Son of God, God's Christ, the one God sent into the world via a miraculous conception through Mary. A mere man?? No other human being was brought into the world through a virgin birth.
A young boy who grew in stature and in wisdom speaking with the leadership within the temple learning and teaching at the same time! A man whom God anointed with His Spirit. A man in whom the Spirit of God dwelled without measure. A man who ALWAYS did the will of God His Father. A man who was despised and rejected by his own people. A man who cried out in anguish for some other way to redeem mankind -- “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” A man who was oppressed and stricken yet he opened not his mouth like a Lamb let to the slaughter pouring out his soul to death, the humiliation of death on the cross ---- None of the above to me sounds like a MERE MAN but an AMAZING human being, a GREAT man of God.....who gave his life so that others could rest assured in their salvation and in their hope of eternal life.

There are classes of beings such as human beings, spiritual beings, and God. According to you, what class or classes of being is Jesus? Unless you can answer this question then you are just equivocating.

 

[amazing grace]

Where does the bible say:

God cannot die ?

Please quote the verse verbatim

Well, if you understood what being immortal means you would understand that the verses which say God is immortal it means God is incapable of dying.
Oxford languages: immortal - living forever; never dying or decaying;
Webster's: living forever : incapable of dying;
Cambridge Dictionary: living or lasting forever: immortal God
Opposite to being mortal, i.e. a human being who is capable of dying --- God is inherently immortal.

Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, which we all will be, given immortality - this mortal must put on immortality----so Jesus was not inherently immortal.

I'm sure you can search the scripture to see whether this is true.

 

[civic]

Well, if you understood what being immortal means you would understand that the verses which say God is immortal it means God is incapable of dying.
Oxford languages: immortal - living forever; never dying or decaying;
Webster's: living forever : incapable of dying;
Cambridge Dictionary: living or lasting forever: immortal God
Opposite to being mortal, i.e. a human being who is capable of dying --- God is inherently immortal.

Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, which we all will be, given immortality - this mortal must put on immortality----so Jesus was not inherently immortal.

I'm sure you can search the scripture to see whether this is true.

Thats why God became man.

Nowhere does God say He cannot become man.

The whole purpose for the atonement and salvation.