The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Doug Brents]

No Jesus did not have all power and authority before God gave it to him.

Then of what did Jesus empty Himself before He left Heaven?

And if Jesus is God and he emptied himself of his divine preogatives as God at that point he quit being God which is also contrary to what others have said - Jesus never quit being God.

Jesus never ceased to be God, that is true. But the fact that He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power, His glory, His knowledge, His omnipresence, etc. does not mean that He ceased to be God. He had all those things, and laid them down of His own free will. They were not stripped from Him.

Jesus was not eternal...... Jesus was born and Jesus died - God raised him from the dead thus Jesus became a life giving spirit --

Jesus was always the LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He is the source of all life and of everything that is (John 1:3). The human manifestation of Jesus was born, and died. But that is not His Spirit, which preceded creation.

Because Jesus was a human mortal being with a physical human body that could and did die.
Jesus' spirit did not come from Heaven before his birth - a human being has a natural, physical body first before having a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 14:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory.
14:43 It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
14:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
14:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
14:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

Are you saying that God is not Jesus' Father?

I am saying that God (the Father) is not the parent of Jesus. The Father is not Jesus' progenitor.

Are you saying that Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit the power of the Most High?

Not at all. Jesus' human form was indeed conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.

You believe that Jesus literally existed before he was conceived - I believe he preexisted in the foreknowledge, in the mind and plan of God.

Yes, I believe, as Scripture says, that Jesus literally existed with the Father as God in Heaven before He was conceived in Mary.

Jesus knew that he had come from God - that God was his Father - and he knew that when he was resurrected he would be exalted to the right hand of God his Father.....

The reason that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all humanity is the reason stated in Romans 5 and elsewhere in scripture. It is not because he was infinite and eternal .... an infinite and eternal being cannot die for the sins of mankind!!!

It can if it empties itself of it eternal, infinite nature, and submits itself to being a mortal human (which is exactly what Jesus did).

Jesus had a beginning Matthew and Luke record Jesus beginning and he had an end - his death on the cross which made salvation available to each and every person in the world and God raised him from the dead and highly exalted him to his own right hand --- That is our hope of resurrection and new life in the age to come.

If Jesus had an end, then He cannot be our savior, for He is still in the ground (1 Cor 15:14-19) and our faith is in vain. And Jesus did not have His beginning when He was born (or even when He was conceived) because He came from Heaven before that, and He existed in Heaven before that, and He was the source of all creation before that.

 

[mikesw]

Scripture does not teach God as a Triune being, person, etc. No one has yet produced a scripture that clearly and succinctly presents their case. Go ahead famous words of yours --- hyperliteralist!!! One would at least expect a FEW scriptures that clearly and succinctly presented their doctrine.

Really? The unitarian has to neglect obvious meaning for some hidden message. The only thing that was required to expose the unitarian misconception was showing the preexistent One who became incarnate. John does that. Jesus is shown pre-existing in continuity. Unitarians cannot erase enough scripture to make their arguments stick.

If preexistence was not the author's intention in John 1 --- then no one is a liar.
I believe the author of John says that the 'Word' was in the beginning with God just as wisdom was in the beginning with God.
Jesus is the Son of God ---- He is not as old as God his Father.

oh wow. an old god and a younger god? Not sure how one arrives at that.

No one skips verses --- there was no private doctrine created ---- Isaiah did not lie just as John did not lie.

oh my. you missed the realization that the logos in John builds upon and corrects the logos of Philo and the Greek philosophers who identified a conscious co-creator. John adds more specifically the preexistent One who became incarnate. If John meant wisdom, then he would have inserted wisdom there. John would have used sophias instead of logos so as to follow Psalm 8 directly. It takes too much reinterpretation and distortion to be a unitarian.

 

[amazing grace]

Then of what did Jesus empty Himself before He left Heaven?

Do you not understand that Jesus was conceived? He wasn't in heaven before his conception.

Jesus never ceased to be God, that is true. But the fact that He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power, His glory, His knowledge, His omnipresence, etc. does not mean that He ceased to be God. He had all those things, and laid them down of His own free will. They were not stripped from Him.
Jesus was always the LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He is the source of all life and of everything that is (John 1:3). The human manifestation of Jesus was born, and died. But that is not His Spirit, which preceded creation.

The 'Word' was the source of EVERYTHING ---- WHAT GOD SPOKE ---- God's spoken word CREATED!!!! By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]

Do you just not understand scripture? Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. [1 Cor. 15:45,46] Jesus became was made a life giving spirit through his resurrection.

It's not the spiritual that is first -- it is not the spiritual body that is FIRST so Jesus could not have existed as a SPIRIT FIRST. It's the natural body, the physical body that is first then the spiritual body.

I am saying that God (the Father) is not the parent of Jesus. The Father is not Jesus' progenitor.

Not at all. Jesus' human form was indeed conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.

So Jesus really wasn't an actual human being just a 'body' which God inhabited? God was actually in Mary's womb for 9 months and Mary took care of God as a baby when He was born? OKAAAAAAY! That totally destroys scripture.

Yes, I believe, as Scripture says, that Jesus literally existed with the Father as God in Heaven before He was conceived in Mary.

Scripture does not say that Jesus literally existed with God before he was conceived. But he was foreknown in the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. [Acts 2:22-24]
but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot; He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you; who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:19-21]

It can if it empties itself of it eternal, infinite nature, and submits itself to being a mortal human (which is exactly what Jesus did).
If Jesus had an end, then He cannot be our savior, for He is still in the ground (1 Cor 15:14-19) and our faith is in vain. And Jesus did not have His beginning when He was born (or even when He was conceived) because He came from Heaven before that, and He existed in Heaven before that, and He was the source of all creation before that.

OMGosh ----- Your lack of understanding actually HURTS - your deterioration of the scripture actually HURTS.

IF JESUS WASN'T RESURRECTED then you faith is in vain.......IF JESUS NEVER DIED then why resurrect HIM?
Jesus DIED. Jesus WAS BURIED and was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus WAS RESURRECTED BY GOD AND HIGHLY EXALTED because Jesus accomplished what God his Father SENT HIM TO DO. AND GOD SENT HIM THROUGH CONCEPTION AND BIRTH! HE WAS RESURRECTED and BECAME A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He WAS RAISED in HIS SPIRITUAL BODY........All of which scripture clearly and succinctly claims!
I can't believe you do not recognize that if Jesus Christ did not actually die, you have no sacrifice ----

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [Romans 5:7-9]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. [Romans 3:23-25a]

 

[mikesw]

haha response to thread 1002

That is not a very intelligent argument against the deity of Christ points I shared in how John 1 formed.

 

[mikesw]

Do you not understand that Jesus was conceived? He wasn't in heaven before his conception.

Duh. No one says there was a physical body of Jesus in heaven. I'm not sure how you challenge something that no one is really saying. You should know that the discussion of the preexisting One who became incarnate is not easily expressed.

The 'Word' was the source of EVERYTHING ---- WHAT GOD SPOKE ---- God's spoken word CREATED!!!! By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]

You miss the basis of John 1 as a response and correction to Greek philosophical ideas of logos and similarly that of Philo.

Do you just not understand scripture? Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. [1 Cor. 15:45,46] Jesus became was made a life giving spirit through his resurrection.

It's not the spiritual that is first -- it is not the spiritual body that is FIRST so Jesus could not have existed as a SPIRIT FIRST. It's the natural body, the physical body that is first then the spiritual body.

Uh. That is the context Jesus created by his resurrection. That is not a statement denying the metaphysical preexistence of the One who became incarnate. I see how confusion builds in the mind of the unitarian.

So Jesus really wasn't an actual human being just a 'body' which God inhabited? God was actually in Mary's womb for 9 months and Mary took care of God as a baby when He was born? OKAAAAAAY! That totally destroys scripture.

Even Alter2Ego speaks of spirit persons in heaven who come into the body through the pregnancy and birthing -- not that the doctrine is correct but it blows away that unitarian theory through self-contradiction. In John 1 we see that the Word was God but continued existence through incarnation. If you know more metaphysical possibilities and restrictions than everyone else, then you might start having an argument --but not a convincing one.

Scripture does not say that Jesus literally existed with God before he was conceived. But he was foreknown in the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. [Acts 2:22-24]
but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot; He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you; who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:19-21]

OMGosh ----- Your lack of understanding actually HURTS - your deterioration of the scripture actually HURTS.

IF JESUS WASN'T RESURRECTED then you faith is in vain.......IF JESUS NEVER DIED then why resurrect HIM?
Jesus DIED. Jesus WAS BURIED and was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus WAS RESURRECTED BY GOD AND HIGHLY EXALTED because Jesus accomplished what God his Father SENT HIM TO DO. AND GOD SENT HIM THROUGH CONCEPTION AND BIRTH! HE WAS RESURRECTED and BECAME A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. He WAS RAISED in HIS SPIRITUAL BODY........All of which scripture clearly and succinctly claims!
I can't believe you do not recognize that if Jesus Christ did not actually die, you have no sacrifice ----

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [Romans 5:7-9]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. [Romans 3:23-25a]

Really. You make a mere man's martyrdom into something that gives righteousness through his blood. Nah. It is that Jesus pre-exists as the One with God. I guess those verses just do not make sense to a unitarian.