The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Amos]

Believing in God and believing in Jesus aren't the same thing.

John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well.

Right, believe in both members of the trinity. And lets not forget the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit.

I have encouragement for you. If you are a genuine born–again Christian, you have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, whether you have acknowledged Him as part of the trinity or not.

 

[amazing grace]

Right, believe in both members of the trinity. And lets not forget the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit.

I have encouragement for you. If you are a genuine born–again Christian, you have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, whether you have acknowledged Him as part of the trinity or not.

It seems that Paul forgot the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit in his greetings at the beginning of his epistles.

 

[Amos]

It seems that Paul forgot the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit in his greetings at the beginning of his epistles.

And your point is...?

The term “Trinity” is the right theological descriptor for the Christian God over against secularism’s atheolgical denials and the alternatives proffered by the other religions of the world.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of the Christian religion. Unless this doctrine is held to firmly and truly, it is not possible to be a Christian.

 

[Runningman]

I'm not sure what to do with your ideas after you have declared Paul and John as following pagan ideas along with Trinitarians. You lose credibility after doing that. Nor do you explain the passages that show Jesus is God. You really cannot solve the issues that appear in scripture and you take the denial route instead.

I will take your avoidance of answering my question as a nod to knowing Paul only mentioned the 1 God as being the Father.

Next step. Did Paul or anyone else ever say God is 3?

 

[Runningman]

QUITE USING THE WORD BIBLE. IT IS NOT IN THE BOOK YOU CLAIM TO READ.

You sure about that? The word is there, just not in English. Your turn. Please show me where the trinity is in the Bible.

Revelation 20
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And books [βιβλία biblia] were opened, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. [βιβλίοις bibliois]

 

[Runningman]

Right, believe in both members of the trinity. And lets not forget the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit.

I have encouragement for you. If you are a genuine born–again Christian, you have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, whether you have acknowledged Him as part of the trinity or not.

According to trinitarianism, "God" is the trinity. So Was Jesus essentially saying, "You believe in the trinity; believe in me as well?" That would place Jesus outside of the trinity.

Now go back to his original statement: "You believe in God; believe in Me as well." As you can see, this sort of language places Jesus as distinctly separate from God. So it's possible to believe in God without believing in Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

It seems that Paul forgot the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit in his greetings at the beginning of his epistles.

With something as important as who God is, you would think that identifying God "correctly" as all three members of the alleged trinity would be a top priority if that's what they believed in.

I mean, how likely is it that God, Jesus, the prophets, and all of the apostles never once identified God as a trinity if they actually thought God is a trinity? If they didn't mention the trinity, then all evidence is that they didn't believe in the trinity. People should not accuse them as such either, but, as you can see, they do.

 

[Amos]

According to trinitarianism, "God" is the trinity. So Was Jesus essentially saying, "You believe in the trinity; believe in me as well?" That would place Jesus outside of the trinity.

Now go back to his original statement: "You believe in God; believe in Me as well." As you can see, this sort of language places Jesus as distinctly separate from God. So it's possible to believe in God without believing in Jesus.

Whatever works for you, go for it. But I'm all in for the Trinity.

I see at least one New Testament reference that indicates the Spirit of God in the Old Testament is to be identified with the Holy Spirit. In Peter’s speech at Pentecost he explains the coming of the Holy Spirit in the dramatic fashion evidenced by speaking in tongues.

He indicates that this is the fulfillment of what Joel had prophesied: “I will pour out my Spirit” Acts 2:17 So we are dealing with the same person, and are justified in using the Old Testament references to God’s Spirit in formulating our understanding of the third person of the Trinity.

Since that is true then it must also be true that God is three-in-one, or triune

 

[Runningman]

Whatever works for you, go for it. But I'm all in for the Trinity.

I see at least one New Testament reference that indicates the Spirit of God in the Old Testament is to be identified with the Holy Spirit. In Peter’s speech at Pentecost he explains the coming of the Holy Spirit in the dramatic fashion evidenced by speaking in tongues.

He indicates that this is the fulfillment of what Joel had prophesied: “I will pour out my Spirit” Acts 2:17 So we are dealing with the same person, and are justified in using the Old Testament references to God’s Spirit in formulating our understanding of the third person of the Trinity.

Since that is true then it must also be true that God is three-in-one, or triune

But Jesus didn't inherently nor automatically have the Holy Spirit. How could a trinity not have inherently unity?

Acts 2
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Acts 10
38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[amazing grace]

And your point is...?

The term “Trinity” is the right theological descriptor for the Christian God over against secularism’s atheolgical denials and the alternatives proffered by the other religions of the world.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of the Christian religion. Unless this doctrine is held to firmly and truly, it is not possible to be a Christian.

Right, believe in both members of the trinity. And lets not forget the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit.

I have encouragement for you. If you are a genuine born–again Christian, you have a relationship with the Holy Spirit, whether you have acknowledged Him as part of the trinity or not.

You said we shouldn't forget the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit so I responded.

The term Trinity is the "right" theological descriptor according to Creeds developed some 292 - 400 years after Christ.

I don't think Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. believed their God was Triune nor the disciples, nor even Jesus!

I believe if it was necessary to believe in a Triune God in order to receive salvation - God would have set it forth as such in a clear succinct manner because God desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is definitely set forth in a straight forward manner.

 

[mikesw]

I will take your avoidance of answering my question as a nod to knowing Paul only mentioned the 1 God as being the Father.

Next step. Did Paul or anyone else ever say God is 3?

self-congratulations on your own ignorance is something you deployed several times. You do not deal with the real issues and try to force the discussion to a language that is not too hard for unitarians. Sad to say that God has not tailored scriptures to such a low comprehension level. There are some passages that show the three together though, such as Matt 28:19-20. I assume you have seen that one before.

 

[Amos]

You said we shouldn't forget the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit so I responded.

The term Trinity is the "right" theological descriptor according to Creeds developed some 292 - 400 years after Christ.

I don't think Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. believed their God was Triune nor the disciples, nor even Jesus!

I believe if it was necessary to believe in a Triune God in order to receive salvation - God would have set it forth as such in a clear succinct manner because God desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is definitely set forth in a straight forward manner.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

 

[Amos]

I hold to the authority of the Bible, and I'm driven to affirm something like the doctrine of the Trinity, namely, that God is one and that there are three who in Scripture are identified as being God or being of a divine nature: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So I believe that God is three in one.

 

[amazing grace]

It's really amusing how people say they hold to the authority of the Bible when the terms and language used for the Trinity is NOT there - 100%God 100%man, God-man, God the Son, God is one yet three . . . not in scripture but yet you hold to scripture?

 

[mikesw]

You said we shouldn't forget the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit so I responded.

The term Trinity is the "right" theological descriptor according to Creeds developed some 292 - 400 years after Christ.

The late use of the term does not nullify the earlier recognition of the threeness of God

I don't think Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. believed their God was Triune nor the disciples, nor even Jesus!

That would be odd if Jesus did not know his own divinity along with the divine Spirit. He points to the three together in Matt 28:19-20.

I believe if it was necessary to believe in a Triune God in order to receive salvation - God would have set it forth as such in a clear succinct manner because God desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

I agree to a certain degree on this point. However, the outright denial of the Triune God does raise concerns whether a person has come to know the true God. The balancing aspect is that a person who has not been made aware of the threeness of God may just be in that ignorance without any reason to be concerned. Also, people can take on incorrect doctrine because they have taken a wrong path of investigation without sin but could be corrected against that incorrect perception and thus accept the correct doctrine in the right situation.

Salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is definitely set forth in a straight forward manner.

 

[mikesw]

It's really amusing how people say they hold to the authority of the Bible when the terms and language used for the Trinity is NOT there - 100%God 100%man, God-man, God the Son, God is one yet three . . . not in scripture but yet you hold to scripture?

You have missed how the unitarians try to control the language and thus control the argument. They just are denying that the understanding of God can transcend verbiage used in the Bible. It must be remembered that the ambiguity is the issue at hand. Namely, Jesus is both described in divine terms and as human. His pre-existence is a major aspect of that ambiguity that unitarians like to gloss over.
Another way to look at the word usage is that English language did not exist in the first century. To the unitarian, that would ultimately mean we cannot use English to describe God.

 

[Amos]

And there is Genesis 1:26

"Let us make man in our image" is from Genesis 1:26, a verse describing God's creation of humanity. It signifies that humans were created to reflect God's nature and attributes, such as consciousness, creativity, and a capacity for relationship. The plural pronouns "us" and "our" have been interpreted in different ways, including as a reference to the Trinity, a divine council of heavenly beings.

 

[amazing grace]

The late use of the term does not nullify the earlier recognition of the threeness of God

It's not the late use of the term but it's the length of time between the OT, the life of Christ, and the life of the apostles that it took to reach this "right" theological descriptor and there are plenty of doctrinal issues.
I doubt any Jew recognized the "threeness" of God.

That would be odd if Jesus did not know his own divinity along with the divine Spirit. He points to the three together in Matt 28:19-20.

I don't see where Jesus ever taught he was God nor claimed to be God.

Yes, the three are mentioned together in Matt. 28:19,20 . . does that indicate a Trinity doctrine? I don't believe it does but just because I do not believe in the Trinity doesn't mean nor give me the right to get rid of the verse. I have to look at the scope of scripture and from the scope of scripture baptism was done in the name of Jesus.

I agree to a certain degree on this point. However, the outright denial of the Triune God does raise concerns whether a person has come to know the true God. The balancing aspect is that a person who has not been made aware of the threeness of God may just be in that ignorance without any reason to be concerned. Also, people can take on incorrect doctrine because they have taken a wrong path of investigation without sin but could be corrected against that incorrect perception and thus accept the correct doctrine in the right situation.

The outright denial of something that is not in scripture raises concerns?
Jesus said his Father was the only true God - I believe him. Jesus said the first and great commandment was the Shema (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29) I believe him.
I was raised Baptist so I used to be a Trinitarian.

 

[amazing grace]

You have missed how the unitarians try to control the language and thus control the argument. They just are denying that the understanding of God can transcend verbiage used in the Bible. It must be remembered that the ambiguity is the issue at hand. Namely, Jesus is both described in divine terms and as human. His pre-existence is a major aspect of that ambiguity that unitarians like to gloss over.

I don't believe we try to 'control' the language per se but there is language that is not biblical! Scripture is our standard of Truth if verbiage is being used outside the parameter of scripture, then shouldn't we question it?

I see Jesus as being a human being just as he was prophesied to be ---- a human being.

I can only speak on my own behalf but the reason I have trouble with a 'literal preexistence' because NO ONE has EVER preexisted their existence. BUT things can be known beforehand through God's foreknowledge which is 'notional or conceptual preexistence.'

Another way to look at the word usage is that English language did not exist in the first century. To the unitarian, that would ultimately mean we cannot use English to describe God.

No, I don't believe that is not what is being said. It's the language used to describe the doctrine of the Trinity is language found in the creeds ---- terms and ideas way beyond the scope of scripture.
Nicene Creed:

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God, . . . so far so good.
BUT then - born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; . . . where did this language originate?

We need to be careful about teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

 

[civic]

It seems that Paul forgot the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit in his greetings at the beginning of his epistles.

Not entirely
Here are a few examples.

Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.


2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.


Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.