Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[Peterlag]

 

[Doug Brents]

He emptied himself of his legal rights as the anointed King, the Christ, the Son of God ---- at the time of his arrest and trial Jesus said he could could appeal to God his Father "and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?"
YET just before his arrest - he chose to wash the disciples feet (even the one who would betray him) as a servant to others, a sacrificial servant.
Paul is teaching the Philippian church:

• Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit
• in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
• Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
• Exactly what Christ Jesus did and we are to imitate his behavior.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus.

That is indeed another thing of which He can be said to have emptied Himself. But that doesn't make any of the other things of which I said He emptied Himself not true.

 

[Doug Brents]

View attachment 2907

I love how you keep going back to this same argument over and over whenever you find yourself losing in the discussion. Do you think it puts you back in the driver's seat? Or that it makes your point regardless of how each point you bring up is destroyed?

 

[Runningman]

"but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men."
How did He empty Himself? BY taking on the form of a servant and being in the likeness of a man. Jesus was in Heaven with the Father (because Jesus is God as well as the Father). And He left Heaven to become a man. A man doesn't have the glory of God, or the knowledge of God, or the ability to use the power of God.

You are reading your beliefs into this passage. Firstly, no one even ever said Jesus is God in the first place to have any such unwarranted assumptions. For two, the context is a teaching about how to have the mind of Jesus. Paul was teaching the church of Philippi to have the mind of Jesus and was explaining how. So your for interpretation to be consistent, you would have to assume that the Church is also God, which doesn't match the context or Scripture for that matter.

Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are reading your beliefs into this passage.

No, I am reading what other passages of Scripture say into this passage of Scripture. There's a BIG difference between the two.

Firstly, no one even ever said Jesus is God in the first place to have any such unwarranted assumptions.

Jesus said He was God on several occasions. And there are several places where others say He is God But we have been over that many times, and you refuse to acknowledge the truth.

For two, the context is a teaching about how to have the mind of Jesus. Paul was teaching the church of Philippi to have the mind of Jesus and was explaining how.

Precisely. He was God, and He didn't think that retaining that position was something to be held onto. So He willingly gave it up.

So your for interpretation to be consistent, you would have to assume that the Church is also God, which doesn't match the context or Scripture for that matter.

No, that is not an assumption that we must have. Just because we have the same attitude as Christ, doesn't mean that we become Him.

Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

Have the attitude that Christ had, not become Christ.

6Who, existing in the form of God,

Jesus was with God, and He was God (John 1:1).

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped

Grasped, held onto, envied, prized

7but emptied Himself,

How much does God have to remove from Himself to be considered "empty"?
Can He retain his knowledge? No, because then He would be full of knowledge, seeing as how God knows everything.
Can He retain His glory? No, because God's glory would distract from Him being a man.
Can He retain the independent use of His power? No, because a human cannot access the power of God directly.

taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

He obviously existed before He took on a new form, and He was obviously not human before He became human.

8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

Then as a human He allowed himself to die (His life was NOT taken from Him (John 10:18)) so that mankind would have the opportunity to live with Him in Heaven.

 

[amazing grace]

That is indeed another thing of which He can be said to have emptied Himself. But that doesn't make any of the other things of which I said He emptied Himself not true.

It is indeed! That is the context of Philippians 2.

Since Jesus Christ was the Son of God and not God then everything you said was not true.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is indeed! That is the context of Philippians 2.

Since Jesus Christ was the Son of God and not God then everything you said was not true.

Thank you for your opinion on that. But I had heard that opinion before, from you even.
But since Scripture is more trustworthy than you, and since Scripture says that Jesus is God, your opinion is not worth anything.

 

[amazing grace]

Thank you for your opinion on that. But I had heard that opinion before, from you even.
But since Scripture is more trustworthy than you, and since Scripture says that Jesus is God, your opinion is not worth anything.

And thanks for your opinion also.
I agree with Scripture which says and Jesus confirms that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Lord's Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

And thanks for your opinion also.
I agree with Scripture which says and Jesus confirms that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Lord's Christ.

I am glad that you accept part of the truth, now accept it all. Jesus is all that, and God also.
Is the Logos of God responsible for Creation?
No discussion, no commentary.
Yes. Or No.

 

[Peterlag]

I love how you keep going back to this same argument over and over whenever you find yourself losing in the discussion. Do you think it puts you back in the driver's seat? Or that it makes your point regardless of how each point you bring up is destroyed?

I never thought of myself as losing. I share here what I see and share on other sites. I also never saw myself destroyed since I'm right.

 

[Doug Brents]

I never thought of myself as losing. I share here what I see and share on other sites. I also never saw myself destroyed since I'm right.

ROTFL, You contradict Scripture left, right, and center. So either you are right and Scripture is meaningless. Or Scripture is right and and you are meaningless. You can't have it both ways.
So which is it? Do we trust you? Or should we trust Scripture?

 

[Runningman]

No, I am reading what other passages of Scripture say into this passage of Scripture. There's a BIG difference between the two.

Me as well. I am finding a big difference between what you're saying and what many other passages say about who God is.

Jesus said He was God on several occasions. And there are several places where others say He is God But we have been over that many times, and you refuse to acknowledge the truth.

No, really he never said he is God. Actually, there is more than one occasion where Jesus denied being God and those who accused him of having claimed to be God, he called them liars and said their father is the devil.

Precisely. He was God, and He didn't think that retaining that position was something to be held onto. So He willingly gave it up.

No that can't be it because that isn't what the Bible says and even if it was, you forfeit your position that Jesus would be God. You have just created the first stepping stone against the deity of Jesus and, at minimum, have called into question the Trinitarian understanding of God and the hypostatic union.

No, that is not an assumption that we must have. Just because we have the same attitude as Christ, doesn't mean that we become Him.

Paul told the church of Philippi "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:" but you're saying that Jesus is God with the mind of God. Paul also said “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” Which is a rhetorical question to say no human can fully know or instruct God’s mind, His wisdom is beyond us. Contrary to this, Paul said "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:" so if Jesus is God and Paul taught them to have the mind of God, then Paul contradicted himself.

Easy way to resolve your misinterpretation is to understand that Paul was teaching them to have the mind of a human. So are you saying that Jesus is not God because you believe he "emptied himself" [of being God?]

Have the attitude that Christ had, not become Christ.

Did you know that Paul also taught people to literally become like Christ as much as possible? (Eph 4:15)

Jesus was with God, and He was God (John 1:1).

Never read that in any Bible. John 1:1 doesn't mention Jesus. Question... how do you define "God" in John 1:1?

Grasped, held onto, envied, prized

Grasped means to take hold of. Are you saying God did not consider equality with himself something to be held onto? In your words, why would someone who "emptied himself of being God" need to consider equality with God unless he isn't God? Are you finally seeing that Jesus isn't God? Then that wouldn't be God considering equality with God anymore, but rather a human who is not equal to God.

Elsewhere in Scripture it is explicit that Jesus is not equal to God (John 14:28)

How much does God have to remove from Himself to be considered "empty"?

For your theory to be sound, the man Jesus would have had to pre-exist his birth as a man who was filled with God in order to perform a later emptying of said deity. Doesn't make sense.

Can He retain his knowledge? No, because then He would be full of knowledge, seeing as how God knows everything.
Can He retain His glory? No, because God's glory would distract from Him being a man.
Can He retain the independent use of His power? No, because a human cannot access the power of God directly.

Then what is your work around for the resurrected, exalted, ascended Jesus not being omniscient or omnipotent?

God gives the resurrected, exalted, ascended Jesus knowledge, thus Jesus is not the originator (Revelation 1:1)
Jesus still has a God after he is resurrected rather than being The God (Revelation 3:12)
Authority given to the resurrected and exalted Jesus (Matthew 28:18)
Jesus still not equal to God after exaltation (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)
The resurrected, exalted, ascended Jesus acting as a mediator, not acting as God (1 Timothy 2:5)
The resurrected, exalted, ascended Jesus "Found Worthy" to open the scroll (Revelation 5:2-9)
God is still the head of the ascended Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:3)

He obviously existed before He took on a new form, and He was obviously not human before He became human.

show where Jesus pre-existed his birth please.

Then as a human He allowed himself to die (His life was NOT taken from Him (John 10:18)) so that mankind would have the opportunity to live with Him in Heaven.

Disagreed based on Scripture.

 

[amazing grace]

I am glad that you accept part of the truth, now accept it all. Jesus is all that, and God also.
Is the Logos of God responsible for Creation?
No discussion, no commentary.
Yes. Or No.

Yes, God spoke creation into existence.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, God spoke creation into existence.

Yes, the Logos of God created everything that was made.
You already agreed earlier that the Logos of God is Jesus (John 1:14 and following).
So the Logos of God created everything that was made, and Jesus is the Logos of God. Jesus is God. Case closed.

 

[amazing grace]

Yes, the Logos of God created everything that was made.
You already agreed earlier that the Logos of God is Jesus (John 1:14 and following).
So the Logos of God created everything that was made, and Jesus is the Logos of God. Jesus is God. Case closed.

I agree that the word of God created everything, i.e. 'and God said' in Genesis 1.
I have repeatedly said that the 'word is God' qualitatively not equivalent or equal to God Himself.
Yes, God's speech created everything that was made -- Jesus embodies God's expressive creative speech.

 

[synergy]

No. Just keep it simple and let's see if we can get you over this hump.

I see that you have no answer for everything i wrote below, as usual:

You continue to rip John 1:14 out of its own context: John already declared in verse 1 that “the Word was God,” and then says that this same eternal divine Word “became flesh”—not by ceasing to be God, nor by being turned into a creature in His divine essence, but by taking to Himself a true human nature and entering history as the man Jesus Christ. John immediately explains this with temple language: “and dwelt among us” literally means “tabernacled among us,” meaning the eternal Word who was with God and was God pitched His tent among us as Jesus, the true divine presence in human form, just as God’s glory once dwelt in the tabernacle. “Became” therefore does not mean “was created as a new being,” but that the divine Word assumed flesh without surrendering deity—just as Paul the Apostle says Christ came “in the likeness of men” and was “found in appearance as a man” while still existing in the form of God (Phil 2:6–8). Nor is this idolatry, because Christians do not worship “mere flesh” or a creature detached from God; we worship the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully divine, the visible self-revelation of the invisible God—not an idol replacing God, but the Word, who was God, personally present among us. Your heretical view confuses nature with person: God did not become “an idol”; rather, the Word, who was God, tabernacled as Jesus. Why do you keep denying these Biblical truths?

You are truly the Running Away Man.

1. Flesh is a creation right?

2. Is God created?

The Word, who was God, tabernacles as Jesus. Because God cannot cease to be God, the tabernacled Word (Jesus) is God.

 

[Runningman]

I see that you have no answer for everything i wrote below, as usual:

You are truly the Running Away Man.

The Word, who was God, tabernacles as Jesus. Because God cannot cease to be God, the tabernacled Word (Jesus) is God.

Bottom line is God isn't flesh. You have an idol if your god is flesh.

 

[synergy]

Bottom line is God isn't flesh. You have an idol if your god is flesh.

Bottom line is whatever the Bible says. The Word, who was God (John 1:1c), tabernacles as Jesus (John 1:14). Because God cannot cease to be God, the tabernacled Word (Jesus) is God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

"The Word became flesh" does not have anything to do with an incarnation, a word which is not even found in the Bible, an idea not found in Jewish-Christian theology and beliefs anywhere in the Bible. "Became" refers to a creation, a changing of state. Did you know that flesh is a creation according to the Bible? God is not flesh, but you are saying that God became flesh, thus it would mean God is flesh, thus it would require God to become an idol. Creations are not the Creator. Make sense?

You continue to rip John 1:14 out of its own context: John already declared in verse 1 that “the Word was God,” and then says that this same eternal divine Word “became flesh”—not by ceasing to be God, nor by being turned into a creature in His divine essence, but by taking to Himself a true human nature and entering history as the man Jesus Christ. John immediately explains this with temple language: “and dwelt among us” literally means “tabernacled among us,” meaning the eternal Word who was with God and was God pitched His tent among us as Jesus, the true divine presence in human form, just as God’s glory once dwelt in the tabernacle. “Became” therefore does not mean “was created as a new being,” but that the divine Word assumed flesh without surrendering deity—just as Paul the Apostle says Christ came “in the likeness of men” and was “found in appearance as a man” while still existing in the form of God (Phil 2:6–8). Nor is this idolatry, because Christians do not worship “mere flesh” or a creature detached from God; we worship the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully divine, the visible self-revelation of the invisible God—not an idol replacing God, but the Word, who was God, personally present among us. Your heretical view confuses nature with person: God did not become “an idol”; rather, the Word, who was God, tabernacled as Jesus. Why do you keep denying these Biblical truths?

Synergy:

I don't agree with some of Runningman's philosophy, such as his/her claim that Jesus Christ was always human (despite the fact scripture makes it clear that Jesus began as a spirit person), but your above claim that John 1:1 at clause #3 ("and the Word was God") proves Jesus is in a trinity with Almighty God Jehovah is as fallacious as Runningman's claims that Jesus has always been human. While Runningman and a few others who are part of his/her team are demoting Jesus Christ by claiming he has always been a mere human, Trinitarians, on the other hand have gone to the opposite extreme by claiming Jesus is God. In reality, John 1:1 at Clause #3--based upon the context--should say "and the Word was a god." And that's lower case "god."

 

[Runningman]

Bottom line is whatever the Bible says. The Word, who was God (John 1:1c), tabernacles as Jesus (John 1:14). Because God cannot cease to be God, the tabernacled Word (Jesus) is God.

Your intrepretaion is contradicted by flesh being a creation while God is not. You don't understand the context, you don't know who God is.