The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[mikesw]

It's not the late use of the term but it's the length of time between the OT, the life of Christ, and the life of the apostles that it took to reach this "right" theological descriptor and there are plenty of doctrinal issues.
I doubt any Jew recognized the "threeness" of God.

Paul specifically relies on the Galatians to recognize Jesus as God in Gal 3:19-20. It is the promise from the Father to Jesus that has only one party and thus is from God to God.
Matthew 28:19-20 reflects the threeness.
The threeness was acknowledged in the first century via the promotion of Mat 28:19-20 but also expressing the threeness by Clement of Rome: "Do we not have one God, and one Christ, and one gracious Spirit that has been poured out upon us, and one calling in Christ?" (1 Clement 46:6)
The threeness is not pagan religion nor is it a late development.

I don't see where Jesus ever taught he was God nor claimed to be God.

John 17:3-5 shows Jesus had the glory before he was incarnate. Matt 26:64-65 was quoting Dan 7:13-14 showing the divinity of Christ. It is basic blindness to such details that some fail to recognize who Jesus is.

Yes, the three are mentioned together in Matt. 28:19,20 . . does that indicate a Trinity doctrine? I don't believe it does but just because I do not believe in the Trinity doesn't mean nor give me the right to get rid of the verse. I have to look at the scope of scripture and from the scope of scripture baptism was done in the name of Jesus.

That is also what unitarians do. They deny Jesus's words in favor of 6 verses by one writer saying they baptized in the name of Jesus. However, that distinction can simply be to differentiate from the baptism of John the Baptist.

The outright denial of something that is not in scripture raises concerns?
Jesus said his Father was the only true God - I believe him. Jesus said the first and great commandment was the Shema (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29) I believe him.
I was raised Baptist so I used to be a Trinitarian.

I'm sorry you lost your trinitarianity. You must remember that Jesus is not said to be a separate god. So his divinity does not violate him pointing out the Father as the true God.

 

[mikesw]

I don't believe we try to 'control' the language per se but there is language that is not biblical! Scripture is our standard of Truth if verbiage is being used outside the parameter of scripture, then shouldn't we question it?

I'm sorry. that is just an excuse of unitarians to avoid talking about the essence of God.

I see Jesus as being a human being just as he was prophesied to be ---- a human being.

So then you reject Dan 7:13-14 that shows him in divinity.

I can only speak on my own behalf but the reason I have trouble with a 'literal preexistence' because NO ONE has EVER preexisted their existence. BUT things can be known beforehand through God's foreknowledge which is 'notional or conceptual preexistence.'

uh. Maybe realize that his pre-existence is his divine status as God. That is supposed to be seen as unusual and not reflective of general metaphysics. It would be ignorant to interpret "before Abraham was I am" as just prophecy. Otherwise, he could have just said "It was prophesied of me before Abraham was born."

No, I don't believe that is not what is being said. It's the language used to describe the doctrine of the Trinity is language found in the creeds ---- terms and ideas way beyond the scope of scripture.
Nicene Creed:

The creeds and confessions had to be added because sly people would claim adherence to a certain creed or confession while denying the spirit of it. It is the sins and weakness of humanity that required the more explicit details of the Triune God.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God, . . . so far so good.
BUT then - born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; . . . where did this language originate?

The passage of John 1:18 has the earlier text saying that Jesus is the only God who is in the bosom of the Father.
The language is added to exclude deceptive people from claiming a creed or confession that actually hold a heretical view of the Triune God.

We need to be careful about teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

I agree. That is why it helps to reject the unitarian misconceptions.

 

[mikesw]

Not entirely
Here are a few examples.

Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.


2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.


Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

It is true that Paul's greetings speak of God and the Son Jesus. These are those who are at the forefront. The Father reflects the continuity of what we recognize explicitly in the OT into the NT. Jesus is known explicitly for dying for our sins and reconciling us to God. The Spirit has come as a helper in what might be seen as a humbler presence. Still, we cannot deny that the Holy Spirit has the same divinity as the Father and the Son. It just was harder to give attention to.

 

[FreeInChrist]

It's not the late use of the term but it's the length of time between the OT, the life of Christ, and the life of the apostles that it took to reach this "right" theological descriptor and there are plenty of doctrinal issues.
I doubt any Jew recognized the "threeness" of God.

I don't see where Jesus ever taught he was God nor claimed to be God.

It is true that Jesus never said the exact words, “I am God.” He did, however, make the claim to be God in many different ways, and those who heard Him knew exactly what He was saying. For example, in John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews who heard Him make that statement knew well that He was claiming to be God, as witnessed by their reaction: “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). When He asked them why they were attempting to stone Him, they said, “For blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), and the Jews plainly accused Jesus of claiming to be God.

Can we say... liar, liar pants on fire??????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.
The disciples of Jesus distinctly heard Him declare His deity. After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas the doubting disciple finally understood Jesus’ deity, declaring Him to be “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28). If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas, but He did not;

PAY ATTENTION: FROM ONE WHO SHOULD KNOW

Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

________________________________
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT JESUS SAID WHEN ASKED ABOUT WHY HE SPOKE IN PARABLES?
I am not suggesting that the trinity is presented in any way like a parable. I see it crystal clear from scripture.

But
Matt 13:11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Matt 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
Matt 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

This well could be one of those wonderful mysteries that when we discover it is a big WOW.
But since I have been asking the following question for quite a while now of everyone who is a non-Trin... and no one has suggested an answer.

Jesus was baptized by John then everyone after that coming into the faith was baptized in the name of Jesus.

Ok, that's cool. He is the Savior and all.

Why then did Jesus change things when He said in Matt 28:19 " “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

If only the Father is God, and Jesus is the Savior.... why include the third one... the Holy Spirit.

And here is a second part of this.... He said... IN THE NAME... SINGULAR. Jesus said to name all three but say in the singular name.

If there is no Trinity WHY?

Yes, the three are mentioned together in Matt. 28:19,20 . . does that indicate a Trinity doctrine? I don't believe it does but just because I do not believe in the Trinity doesn't mean nor give me the right to get rid of the verse. I have to look at the scope of scripture and from the scope of scripture baptism was done in the name of Jesus.

The outright denial of something that is not in scripture raises concerns?
Jesus said his Father was the only true God - I believe him. Jesus said the first and great commandment was the Shema (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29) I believe him.
I was raised Baptist so I used to be a Trinitarian.

 

[Runningman]

self-congratulations on your own ignorance is something you deployed several times. You do not deal with the real issues and try to force the discussion to a language that is not too hard for unitarians. Sad to say that God has not tailored scriptures to such a low comprehension level. There are some passages that show the three together though, such as Matt 28:19-20. I assume you have seen that one before.

Finding three of something in the Bible and randomly saying "that's God" because that's what you feel isn't a valid yardstick for truth. Where does the Bible say "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are God? Don't give me a bunch of verses scattered around the Bible where the writer was talking about a bunch of different contexts. Where did anyone succinctly describe or explain God to be a trinity known as the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?" Never happened, which is what we have been trying to get you to open your eyes and ears to. What the Bible does say about God is that the only God is the Father. Why do you reject what is clear about God for what is not clear about God?

 

[amazing grace]

Not entirely
Here are a few examples.

Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

Thanks for the great scriptures but I did specify - It seems that Paul forgot the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit in his greetings at the beginning of his epistles.

 

[amazing grace]

Paul specifically relies on the Galatians to recognize Jesus as God in Gal 3:19-20. It is the promise from the Father to Jesus that has only one party and thus is from God to God.

Where does Galatians 3:19-20 did Paul recognize Jesus as God? Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Wasn't the promise from God to Abraham . . . Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say 'And to offsprings' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ. . . . for if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. (16,18)

Matthew 28:19-20 reflects the threeness.
The threeness was acknowledged in the first century via the promotion of Mat 28:19-20 but also expressing the threeness by Clement of Rome: "Do we not have one God, and one Christ, and one gracious Spirit that has been poured out upon us, and one calling in Christ?" (1 Clement 46:6)
The threeness is not pagan religion nor is it a late development.

Yes, I agree that the three are mentioned together. It seems Clement of Rome is not suggesting or indicating a Trinity doctrine either . . . We do have one God, and we do have one Messiah and we have the gift of holy spirit which Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost --- and one calling in Christ.

John 17:3-5 shows Jesus had the glory before he was incarnate. Matt 26:64-65 was quoting Dan 7:13-14 showing the divinity of Christ. It is basic blindness to such details that some fail to recognize who Jesus is.

I agree in a straightforward meaning of John 17:3 - The Father is the only true God.

I believe 'with the glory I had with you, before the world existed' is in the prophetic perfect tense and refers to a promised glory Jesus would receive upon his completion of accomplishing the work that he was given to do, i.e. upon his death and resurrection.
The prophetic perfect tense is a legitimate literary device ---- this allows Jesus to speak of his future glorification as a completed event, since its fulfillment is absolutely certain in God's eyes. Please note: I am not denying scripture . . . I am denying the concept of literally existing before you literally exist. I don't believe there are spirits somewhere up in the sky waiting to enter a body to be born . . . that is a Greek philosophy concept.

But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, 'I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.' . . . 'You have said so. (IOW, yes) But from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming in the clouds of heaven.' . . . If Dan. 7:13,14 is showing the Divinity of Christ, i.e. his being God, who is the Ancient of Days he presented himself to? If he is God, why did the Ancient of Days have to give to him dominion and glory and a kingdom, etc.?

That is also what unitarians do. They deny Jesus's words in favor of 6 verses by one writer saying they baptized in the name of Jesus. However, that distinction can simply be to differentiate from the baptism of John the Baptist.

But isn't it true the 6 verses do say that the baptizing was in the name of Jesus? I am not denying Jesus's words at all - they are there in black and white but the evidence of scripture lean toward being baptized in the name of Jesus.
Aren't you in a manner, denying the 6 scriptures in Acts - in favor of 1 verse?

I'm sorry you lost your trinitarianity. You must remember that Jesus is not said to be a separate god. So his divinity does not violate him pointing out the Father as the true God.

Thanks for your concern but I'm not sorry at all! It's great to be clear minded as to who God and Christ are . . .
If the Father is the ONLY TRUE God that excludes Jesus from being God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Thanks for the great scriptures but I did specify - It seems that Paul forgot the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit in his greetings at the beginning of his epistles.

You are responding to @civic but I want to say something about this.

Paul may not mention the Holy Spirit in his beginning greetings in his epistles............. However he does talk about the Holy Spirit A LOT.

There are at minimum 24 mentions of the Holy Spirit in his letters, but also the mentions of the Spirit of God, so there are many more. Here are some passages, all the words of Paul.

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Acts 20:22 “And now, behold, bound by the Spirit, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there,

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Romans 15:13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:15-16 15 But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

PAY ATTETION. PAUL AYS IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT SANCTIFIES US. ​

​

1 COR 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

2 COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

PAY ATTENTION. PAUL INCLUDED ALL THREE HERE.

EPH 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1 THES 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

1 THES 1;6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
\
2 Tim 1;14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

TITUS 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

PAY ATTENTION. THE WASHING AND RENEWING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Paul recognized the Holy Spirit as much as he did God the Father and Jesus, and he used them all together in some passages. Paul was the theologian of the New Testament, and had no problem with the Holy Spirit being one of the Godhead.

Surely by now you must see and recognize that there were three that were involved in our ultimate salvation goals.

Each of the three are separate individuals, or if you prefer entities within the Godhead. THEREFORE THEY ARE ALL GOD.

GOD IN THREE PERSONS... THE BLESSED TRINITY.

Amen, amen


And before I go for now I want to emphasize a scripture from above from Paul.

2 Corinthians 13:14​

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Amen, amen

 

[amazing grace]

I'm sorry. that is just an excuse of unitarians to avoid talking about the essence of God.

Okay . . . I will deal with that.

So then you reject Dan 7:13-14 that shows him in divinity.

Addressed in previous post . . . No I do not reject Daniel 7:13,14 --- I reject your understanding of the verse.

uh. Maybe realize that his pre-existence is his divine status as God. That is supposed to be seen as unusual and not reflective of general metaphysics. It would be ignorant to interpret "before Abraham was I am" as just prophecy. Otherwise, he could have just said "It was prophesied of me before Abraham was born."

I believe God said in his scripture that he is not a man . . . why would God come to earth as one of his created beings, a human being? Why would God enter the womb of a woman to be born?
Didn't God promise Moses: “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen. . . And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. . . . I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. (Deut. 18:15,18) Didn't God promise David: When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son.(2 Sam. 7:12-14a)
Were these prophecies about Jesus? Doesn't it sound like the Messiah would be a human being? So, why would God be so deceitful . . . Why would Jesus carry on that deceit?

Yeah . . . he could have said that but the terminology used in scripture is not in our 21st century vocabulary. Jesus was greater, superior and foreknown; 'before Abraham'.

The creeds and confessions had to be added because sly people would claim adherence to a certain creed or confession while denying the spirit of it. It is the sins and weakness of humanity that required the more explicit details of the Triune God.

The creeds were developed over a period of time and basically were developed over the exact issue that is still argued today. Who is Jesus Christ?

Sin and weakness of humanity is the reason that people stray from believing in a Triune God? I'll have to disagree.
I see the doctrine as something that demotes Almighty God to a human being and diminishes the victorious accomplishments of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ by raising his status to Almighty God.

The passage of John 1:18 has the earlier text saying that Jesus is the only God who is in the bosom of the Father.
The language is added to exclude deceptive people from claiming a creed or confession that actually hold a heretical view of the Triune God.

Are you bringing up John 1:18 as defense for where the language of the Nicene Creed originated?

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Remember Jesus prayed to the Father - And this is eternal life, that they know YOU the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. . . . In that rendering we have 'God who is at God's side' or 'God who is in the bosom of God'????

The vast majority of other Greek manuscripts, including later ones, have "only begotten Son". . . The "God" reading is characteristic of the Alexandrian textual tradition, while almost all other textual traditions (Western, Byzantine, Caesarean) read "Son". So, I guess we could say the translation is questionable but out of all God's creation - he did give humanity the capability of reason and logic. I prefer the rendering - 'the only Son, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.'

I agree. That is why it helps to reject the unitarian misconceptions.

Yeah, I'll stick with being a Unitarian.

 

[civic]

You are responding to @civic but I want to say something about this.

Paul may not mention the Holy Spirit in his beginning greetings in his epistles............. However he does talk about the Holy Spirit A LOT.

There are at minimum 24 mentions of the Holy Spirit in his letters, but also the mentions of the Spirit of God, so there are many more. Here are some passages, all the words of Paul.

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Acts 20:22 “And now, behold, bound by the Spirit, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there,

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Romans 15:13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:15-16 15 But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

PAY ATTETION. PAUL AYS IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT SANCTIFIES US. ​

​

1 COR 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

2 COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

PAY ATTENTION. PAUL INCLUDED ALL THREE HERE.

EPH 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1 THES 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

1 THES 1;6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
\
2 Tim 1;14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

TITUS 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

PAY ATTENTION. THE WASHING AND RENEWING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Paul recognized the Holy Spirit as much as he did God the Father and Jesus, and he used them all together in some passages. Paul was the theologian of the New Testament, and had no problem with the Holy Spirit being one of the Godhead.

Surely by now you must see and recognize that there were three that were involved in our ultimate salvation goals.

Each of the three are separate individuals, or if you prefer entities within the Godhead. THEREFORE THEY ARE ALL GOD.

GOD IN THREE PERSONS... THE BLESSED TRINITY.

Amen, amen


And before I go for now I want to emphasize a scripture from above from Paul.

2 Corinthians 13:14​

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Amen, amen

I can make an argument that leaves out both the Father and Holy Spirit.

Eternal life is found mainly in the Son apart from the Father mentioned once in John 17:3.

Jesus and the Apostles have it in Christ.

So just because something is " missing" from our point of view does not mean its true.

Jesus is called the only Sovereign, only Lord, One Lord.

Does that exclude the Father from being Lord ?

Absolutely not. We cannot base theology upon an argument from silence.

The unitarians play that game to try and disprove the Deity of Christ with their " One, Only " God argument in John 17:3. But we know that Christ is also called the True God and Eternla Life in 1 John 5:20.

hope this helps !!!

 

[amazing grace]

It is true that Jesus never said the exact words, “I am God.” He did, however, make the claim to be God in many different ways, and those who heard Him knew exactly what He was saying. For example, in John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews who heard Him make that statement knew well that He was claiming to be God, as witnessed by their reaction: “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). When He asked them why they were attempting to stone Him, they said, “For blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), and the Jews plainly accused Jesus of claiming to be God.

Can we say... liar, liar pants on fire??????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

In John 10:30 . . The context in which Jesus says "I and the Father are one" is in caring for the sheep. The Jews as usual misunderstood his statement and ACCUSED him 'because you being a man, make yourself God.' Jesus didn't say he was God even later in verse 36 he said - "do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming' because I said, "I am the Son of God?"

We can say......"liar, liar pants on fire"......to the unbelieving Jews who were falsely accusing Jesus! Are you in grade school?

Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.

Nope, Jesus was before Abraham as in the question asked: Are you greater than our Father Abraham? and Jesus was before Abraham in God's foreknowledge as we can see from the first prophecy concerning Jesus in Gen. 3:15. Again, I would not side with the ones who were against our Lord. . . . 'but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did." Who did Jesus say their father was?
But because I tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

Jesus has said some very serious things against them so they continue and they accuse him of having a demon!! Jesus makes another statement that brings Abraham further into the discussion . . . if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death (misunderstood again, Jesus is speaking of the resurrection) . . . now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets . . . Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? - Who do you make yourself out to be? . . . Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day - He saw it and was glad . . . (Again, they misunderstand what he has said) You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham? Jesus didn't say he saw Abraham . . . .

The disciples of Jesus distinctly heard Him declare His deity. After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas the doubting disciple finally understood Jesus’ deity, declaring Him to be “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28). If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas, but He did not;

PAY ATTENTION: FROM ONE WHO SHOULD KNOW

So, Thomas went from 'doubting Thomas' to a full acknowledgement that Jesus was the one true God? I really don't think so.
After the above statement by Thomas the author of John, the only gospel which has a purpose statement, gives the a purpose for which his gospel is presented ----- but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. [John 20:31] The gospel of John was not written so that we would believe Jesus is God yet that gospel is where most draw this conclusion from.

Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

Yeah, Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6 which is addressed to a human Israelite king and that king has a God: Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions; - the same said about Jesus. I don't believe God is anointing God here.

If it is referring to Jesus AS God then in turn the human Israelite king addressed in Psalm 45 is also being referred to AS God. ---- How many 'gods' are we going to have?

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT JESUS SAID WHEN ASKED ABOUT WHY HE SPOKE IN PARABLES?
I am not suggesting that the trinity is presented in any way like a parable. I see it crystal clear from scripture.

But
Matt 13:11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Matt 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
Matt 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

This well could be one of those wonderful mysteries that when we discover it is a big WOW.
But since I have been asking the following question for quite a while now of everyone who is a non-Trin... and no one has suggested an answer.

So, the parables are written because they conceal the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, i.e. the Trinity?
All of these parables are in regard to the kingdom of heaven . . . don't miss the boat!!

Jesus was baptized by John then everyone after that coming into the faith was baptized in the name of Jesus.

Ok, that's cool. He is the Savior and all.

Why then did Jesus change things when He said in Matt 28:19 " “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

If only the Father is God, and Jesus is the Savior.... why include the third one... the Holy Spirit.

And here is a second part of this.... He said... IN THE NAME... SINGULAR. Jesus said to name all three but say in the singular name.

If there is no Trinity WHY?

Did John use this formula when he baptized Jesus? We don't know because scripture is silent so we don't know that anything was changed?
Does this passage say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are three persons united in the Godhead or three persons in one essence?
Does it assert that they are all equal, i.e. co-equal?
Does this passage say they are to be worshiped in unity? So, where is the doctrine in question found in this verse?
I see ----- 'the Father as God; the Son as the human Messiah and the Holy Spirit being God's Spirit' --- one can choose to read a Trinity into the verse or not.'

 

[amazing grace]

You are responding to @civic but I want to say something about this.

Paul may not mention the Holy Spirit in his beginning greetings in his epistles............. However he does talk about the Holy Spirit A LOT.

I am not arguing whether Paul mentioned the Holy Spirit or not - I know that he did but you would have thought if the Trinity existed Paul would have greetings in his epistles in that manner: Romans 1:7b - To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ . . .
1 Cor. 1:3 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus . . . Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ; 2 Cor. 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ; Galatians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ; Eph. 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ; Philippians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ . . . and so on and so on - no greeting includes the third person of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit.

There are at minimum 24 mentions of the Holy Spirit in his letters, but also the mentions of the Spirit of God, so there are many more. Here are some passages, all the words of Paul.

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Acts 20:22 “And now, behold, bound by the Spirit, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there,

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Romans 15:13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:15-16 15 But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

I am not arguing whether Paul mentioned the Holy Spirit or not - I know that he did

PAY ATTETION. PAUL AYS IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT SANCTIFIES US. ​

1 COR 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

2 COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

PAY ATTENTION. PAUL INCLUDED ALL THREE HERE.

Yes, he did. But again: Does this passage say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are three persons united in the Godhead or three persons in one essence? Does it assert that they are all equal, i.e. co-equal? Does this passage say they are to be worshiped in unity? So, where is the doctrine in question found in this verse?
I see --- 'the Lord Jesus Christ as the human Messiah; the love of God as that of a Father for his children; and the Holy Spirit being God's Spirit' --- one can choose to read a Trinity into the verse or not.'

EPH 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1 THES 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

1 THES 1;6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
\
2 Tim 1;14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

TITUS 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

PAY ATTENTION. THE WASHING AND RENEWING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Paul recognized the Holy Spirit as much as he did God the Father and Jesus, and he used them all together in some passages. Paul was the theologian of the New Testament, and had no problem with the Holy Spirit being one of the Godhead.

Surely by now you must see and recognize that there were three that were involved in our ultimate salvation goals.

Yes, I know Paul recognized the Holy Spirit but not as a separate entity . . . the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, aka God's Spirit. God is our Father and God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because the three are mentioned together in a verse of scripture does not mean they are all one entity.

Each of the three are separate individuals, or if you prefer entities within the Godhead. THEREFORE THEY ARE ALL GOD.

GOD IN THREE PERSONS... THE BLESSED TRINITY.

Amen, amen

And before I go for now I want to emphasize a scripture from above from Paul.

2 Corinthians 13:14​

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Amen, amen

Great scripture! But as I said ----- I am not arguing whether Paul mentioned the Holy Spirit or not - I know that he did.

The Holy Spirit, aka the Spirit of God, aka God's Spirit is the power of the Most High - Luke 1:35. The Holy Spirit is God - Acts 5:4
Or the gift of holy spirit one receives when they repent and are baptized - Acts 2:38

 

[amazing grace]

I can make an argument that leaves out both the Father and Holy Spirit.

Eternal life is found mainly in the Son apart from the Father mentioned once in John 17:3.

Jesus and the Apostles have it in Christ.

So just because something is " missing" from our point of view does not mean its true.

Jesus is called the only Sovereign, only Lord, One Lord.

Does that exclude the Father from being Lord ?

Absolutely not. We cannot base theology upon an argument from silence.

The unitarians play that game to try and disprove the Deity of Christ with their " One, Only " God argument in John 17:3. But we know that Christ is also called the True God and Eternla Life in 1 John 5:20.

hope this helps !!!

"One, only God" argument mentioned once in John 17:3 - ever hear of the Ten Commandments? ever hear of the Shema? Ever hear of the first great commandment?

1 John 5:10
And we know that the Son of God come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

True God is the Father = John 17:3 = know him who is true = God the Father. We are in union with the one who is true [God the Father] and also in union with his Son Jesus Christ. He [God the Father] is the true God and eternal life.

Jesus is NEVER called 'the true God'.

 

[civic]

"One, only God" argument mentioned once in John 17:3 - ever hear of the Ten Commandments? ever hear of the Shema? Ever hear of the first great commandment?

1 John 5:10
And we know that the Son of God come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

True God is the Father = John 17:3 = know him who is true = God the Father. We are in union with the one who is true [God the Father] and also in union with his Son Jesus Christ. He [God the Father] is the true God and eternal life.

Jesus is NEVER called 'the true God'.

Wrong once again as you are basing it solely on your personal opinion and what you have been taught. I on the other hand can provide sound exegesis of the text below and not eisegesis and bias as you have done.

Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.

Also we see that when we search the NT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.

1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.


On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).

29 Winer-Moulton, 195.
Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.



My top 10 biblical and exegetical reasons Jesus Christ is the True God and Eternal Life.

1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)

2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings

3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)

4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.

5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)

6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.

7th- Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).

8th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.

9th- Netbible- Wallace
If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to "the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us." Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

10th- This/ He (autos)Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God


Conclusion: So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the NT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:

1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols- Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.This is the last of the contrasts of which the Epistle is so full. We have had light and darkness, truth and falsehood, love and hate, God and the world, Christ and Antichrist, life and death, doing righteousness and doing sin, the children of God and the children of the devil, the spirit of truth and the spirit of error, the believer untouched by the evil one and the world lying in the evil one; and now at the close we have what in that age was the ever present and pressing contrast between the true God Jesus Christ and the idols.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Thanks for the great scriptures but I did specify - It seems that Paul forgot the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit in his greetings at the beginning of his epistles.

Paul didn't "forget." Paul didn't believe in the trinity.

 

[civic]

Paul didn't "forget." Paul didn't believe in the trinity.

sure He did as did all the other Apostles. only unbelievers deny the Deity of Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Runningman]

sure He did as did all the other Apostles. only unbelievers deny the Deity of Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit.

None of them believed in the trinity nor stated they did. They didn't even hint about it. Paul explicitly stated the one and only God for us Christians is the Father. He explicitly is referring to God being a singular person as opposed to many other so-called gods.

1 Corinthians 8
4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

 

[civic]

None of them believed in the trinity nor stated they did. They didn't even hint about it. Paul explicitly stated the one and only God for us Christians is the Father. He explicitly is referring to God being a singular person as opposed to many other so-called gods.

1 Corinthians 8
4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

One Lord

oops the Father is not Lord.

next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

One Lord

oops the Father is not Lord.

next fallacy

Wow. Scripture teaches the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, a title Jesus is never called. Scripture also teaches the Lord of heaven and earth is God the Creator, even more titles Jesus is never called. The one and only God is the Father.

Matthew 11​

25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

​

Acts 17​

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.​

And the Lord (the one and only true God, the Father) sent Jesus Christ.

​

Acts 3​

20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.​

 

[civic]

Wow. Scripture teaches the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, a title Jesus is never called. Scripture also teaches the Lord of heaven and earth is God the Creator, even more titles Jesus is never called. The one and only God is the Father.

Matthew 11​

25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

​

Acts 17​

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.​

And the Lord (the one and only true God, the Father) sent Jesus Christ.

​

Acts 3​

20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.​

sorry 1 Cor 8:6 "your pet verse " says there is only one God and it says there is only one Lord

as they say: you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

next fallacy