The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[mikesw]

Your response to using the words of the Bible is by bringing up cults, propaganda, and/or logical fallacies. It's difficult to follow your train of thought to a conclusion that seems to respect Scripture. I should stop giving you the benefit of the doubt, you actually don't like what the Bible says or the words it uses. You have done everything to suggest this apart from explicitly stating it.

Haha. I am not the one denying the divinity of Christ that is explicit in scripture. Maybe you need to rewrite your script.

Ironically, you are using a well-known cult tactic called "poisoning the well." You are attempting to discredit the words of the Bible and instead introduce your own vocabulary to replace it.

You are relying on the old unitarian pocket dictionary that prevents you from real debate.

You sound like a gnostic. You are referring to secret knowledge now. You have cult red flags coming out of your ears at this point. Apparently, the Bible is wrong and only you have the correct interpretation and the right words to use if I understand you correctly.

Haha. Not secret knowledge. It is blatant. But you have to know scriptures to see christ's divinity, not just throw out your proof texts.

 

[mikesw]

No you've failed to read scripture properly.

you try to flip that problem on to me. But you deny the direct verses speaking of jesus' preexistence and his divinity. It is the ambiguity of Jesus as both human and divine that the unitarian hyperliteralist fails to even discuss

 

[dwight92070]

On the topic of who God is, we just base it off the Bible. I don't even read or quote Unitarian commentaries much so I have no idea who you think I am quoting. Mainly I just quote God, Jesus, and/or the apostles and prophets.

Did you know the below passage is in the Bible? It's not a quote from a heretic, it's Jesus teaching Unitarianism in the Holy Bible.

John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Perhaps you are projecting your own feelings into the conversation. Normally I feel good, happy, and often I laugh at you guys. I don't lose any sleep over what you guys say. I don't carry it with me, I don't think about it later on. I think about it while I am here and move on until I am ready to come back. Maybe I have prayed for you guys sometimes, but not often. One prayer is enough unless it was weighing heavily on my heart, which it's not right now.

You should have lead your comment with this. You don't think it's problematic that the trinity is never explained? You said the concept of the trinity is all over the New Testament. That would only work if you quoted a handful of verses and ignored the context. This is where context and reading comprehension is important. Does anything null or void the Father being the only and only true God? (John 17:1-13, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, Ephesians 4:6)

Problematic? Not at all. Can you explain how God always existed? Of course you can't. Our little pea brains cannot comprehend Someone who had NO BEGINNING. The Trinity is no different in that respect - and no wonder because we're speaking of the very essence of the CREATOR HIMSELF. Even if Jesus had explained it, we could not comprehend it. When we see Him face to face, maybe, just maybe, we will have a much better understanding of His awesomeness.

I guess I was thinking of Peterlag and others. He has quoted several others who refuse the truth of Jesus' Deity and the Trinity.

Actually John 17 1-3 doesn't help your opinion in the least. It actually strengthens the Trinity belief. "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

This verse shows that they are distinct, i.e. separate beings, and yet BOTH must be known to have eternal life. So they are separate Beings AND THE SAME BEING AT THE SAME TIME. Here we see the unexplainable Trinity - of course we know the Holy Spirit is also God.
Yes, the Father is the only true God and at the same time, so is Jesus. "The Word was with God and the Word WAS God." John 1:1 and no, NOTHING is taken out of context. "The WORD (who WAS God) became flesh (Jesus Christ) and dwelt among us." John 1:14 If you don't see that, then you are the one taking it out of context.

Let's look at another one: 1 John 5:20: "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we ARE IN HIM (that's the Father) who is true, IN HIS SON Jesus Christ. This (being in the Father AND in the Son) IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

So being in the Father AND being in His Son IS THE TRUE GOD. Again, nothing is taken out of context here.

How about Revelation 5:13-14?, "And EVERY CREATED THING WHICH IS IN HEAVEN AND ON THE EARTH ... I heard saying, 'To Him who sits on the throne (the Father) AND TO THE LAMB (the Son Jesus Christ) be blessing, and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.' And the four living creatures kept saying, 'Amen'. And the elders fell down and worshiped."

Did you notice that THE LAMB was NOT INCLUDED IN EVERY CREATED THING? Jesus was NOT created. Yes, His physical body was created inside of Mary's womb, but NOT HIS SPIRIT. His spirit is eternal. Not only that, but HE WAS WORSHIPED RIGHT ALONG WITH THE FATHER WITH EQUAL PRAISE. And we know that ONLY ONE should be rightfully worshiped - God Himself.

Yes, it speaks of 2 separate Beings, He who sits on the throne, the Father, and the Lamb, Jesus, His Son. But at the SAME TIME, NEITHER OF THEM were created AND also notice here THAT THE LAMB DOES NOT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE. RATHER, HE, THE LAMB, JESUS CHRIST, RECEIVES EQUAL WORSHIP RIGHT ALONG WITH THE FATHER. So indeed they are separate Beings, AND AT THE SAME TIME, ONE BEING, THE ONE TRUE GOD.

Once again, nothing is taken out of context here.

Even if there were NO more verses or passages that show this truth, THESE SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT, but there are many more.

But if you don't acknowledge the truth here - you won't acknowledge the truth shown in all the other passages. Then the problem lies with you rejecting the truth, not with the passages themselves.

 

[Runningman]

Haha. I am not the one denying the divinity of Christ that is explicit in scripture. Maybe you need to rewrite your script.

You are relying on the old unitarian pocket dictionary that prevents you from real debate.

Haha. Not secret knowledge. It is blatant. But you have to know scriptures to see christ's divinity, not just throw out your proof texts.

You are attempting to poison the well. So are the words the Bible uses wholly adequate to describe God or do we need the words you use, even though God, the prophets, Jesus, or the disciples didn't use them too?

 

[Runningman]

you try to flip that problem on to me. But you deny the direct verses speaking of jesus' preexistence and his divinity. It is the ambiguity of Jesus as both human and divine that the unitarian hyperliteralist fails to even discuss

Here we are again. I have already asked you to show me where in the Old Testament Jesus is pre-existing and doing/saying things before he was born of Mary. Remember when we talked about this? You couldn't find any verses.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Bible describes God using only the words of the Bible. If the Bible can do it, then children can do it, too. Why do you think neither you or children describe God using the same words as the Bible? Do you believe that the Bible is wholly insufficient to identify who God is? That would explain why you use ideas not present in Scripture. You seem to think you're the hero the Bible never asked for.

How about some biblical ideas.... that tells us who He IS.

"If you are a sinner, and there is a holy God, and you are defining sin as a falling short of that God, then, in order to understand what he is doing to solve that, you have got to understand that he is angry about that. He is just. He is a good judge.

So, what has he done to solve the problem of our alienation from him?

He has sent his Son into the world. You've got to believe in the deity of Jesus. Psalm 49 says that no man can pay a ransom for another man. A few verses later, in verse 15, it says God will pay the ransom.
He couldn't have used John, or Peter or Paul to die for us. He had to have the God-man die for us. So the deity of Jesus is essential.

You also must acknowledge what Jesus did. He lived the perfect life. I don't think you can believe that Jesus sinned and still be saved. Because then the sacrifice made for you was not what God required, and you aren't believing in what God did for you. So Jesus is the sinless Son of God and he gives himself up to die in my place. ~ John Piper

IOW as it is stated ... no man can pay a ransom for another man. YET
Jesus paid the ransom for us all.

1 Tim 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
These prove that Jesus was to be our ransom BUT no man can pay a ransom for another man. Right?

So Psalm 49:15 states God will pay the ransom.

God will pay the ransom. Yet it was the man Jesus on the cross for our sins......

THEREFORE undisputable Biblical proof that Jesus is God.

 

[mikesw]

Here we are again. I have already asked you to show me where in the Old Testament Jesus is pre-existing and doing/saying things before he was born of Mary. Remember when we talked about this? You couldn't find any verses.

You never learn anything. We only have the name Jesus in the incarnation. There is no doctrine of the incarnated Son walking around with the name Jesus because this is pre-incarnation. You have no argument here but only your confusion.
Jesus says "before Abraham was born, I am." That does not mean the incarnation happened before Abraham. This means he is God and thus exists before the incarnation. But you remain as confused as the Jews he encountered.

 

[Runningman]

How about some biblical ideas.... that tells us who He IS.


IOW as it is stated ... no man can pay a ransom for another man. YET
Jesus paid the ransom for us all.

1 Tim 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
These prove that Jesus was to be our ransom BUT no man can pay a ransom for another man. Right?

So Psalm 49:15 states God will pay the ransom.

God will pay the ransom. Yet it was the man Jesus on the cross for our sins......

THEREFORE undisputable Biblical proof that Jesus is God.

I encourage you to read more of what the Bible says because you're not presenting a sound conclusion and I'll explain why.

Animal sacrifices were also being used to pay the ransom for people's sins, although not permanently. See Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35, etc. And we know that animals are not God. So when someone or something is used to redeem someone else, a sin sacrifice for example, we know that God isn't the sin sacrifice based on all precedent. We also must realize that God can't die. Therefore Jesus is not God.

There is also Scripture that shows where Moses is a redeemer.

Acts 7​

35This Moses, whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ is the one whom God sent to be their ruler and redeemer through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.​

So you are not reading the context carefully and using other logical fallacies to come to a bad conclusion. Others can pay the ransom for others and redeem others. Psalm 49:15 only applies to the context its written in, not as a general universal rule.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Problematic? Not at all. Can you explain how God always existed? Of course you can't. Our little pea brains cannot comprehend Someone who had NO BEGINNING. The Trinity is no different in that respect - and no wonder because we're speaking of the very essence of the CREATOR HIMSELF. Even if Jesus had explained it, we could not comprehend it. When we see Him face to face, maybe, just maybe, we will have a much better understanding of His awesomeness.

Well said.

I often wonder why there are those who fight the concept so badly . It is almost as if they are afraid to embrace a truth.

 

[Runningman]

Problematic? Not at all. Can you explain how God always existed?

I don't need to explain that nor ever claimed to. The Bible doesn't talk about it so I don't talk about it either. The Bible also doesn't talk about the trinity so why are you talking about it? With the constant harping about the trinity, you are always going to be fallaciously begging the question because just as soon as someone says, "Oh ok, thanks for sharing your view sir, but where does the Bible have a trinity in it too?" You will throw something at the wall, hope it sticks, and when it doesn't stick the question will come back "Oh ok, thanks for sharing your view sir, but where does the Bible have a trinity in it too?" in an infinite loop. You should avoid making circular arguments.

Of course you can't. Our little pea brains cannot comprehend Someone who had NO BEGINNING. The Trinity is no different in that respect - and no wonder because we're speaking of the very essence of the CREATOR HIMSELF. Even if Jesus had explained it, we could not comprehend it. When we see Him face to face, maybe, just maybe, we will have a much better understanding of His awesomeness.

General rule of thumb is where the Bible is silent then be silent. Do you follow that rule? I assume you are not intentionally adding to nor taking away from what the authors of the Bible said, but talking about the trinity introduces a concept not in the Bible. So you should avoid doing that.

I guess I was thinking of Peterlag and others. He has quoted several others who refuse the truth of Jesus' Deity and the Trinity.

Jesus isn't God in the Bible though. @Peterlag

Actually John 17 1-3 doesn't help your opinion in the least. It actually strengthens the Trinity belief. "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

John 17:1-3 states the Father is the only true God. That's a powerful statement about who God is. You don't have any such statements about your trinity, but if you did you would be parading them around as well.

This verse shows that they are distinct, i.e. separate beings, and yet BOTH must be known to have eternal life. So they are separate Beings AND THE SAME BEING AT THE SAME TIME. Here we see the unexplainable Trinity - of course we know the Holy Spirit is also God.
Yes, the Father is the only true God and at the same time, so is Jesus.

The only true God sent Jesus. Therefore Jesus isn't the only true God. It's intuitive, easy to understand, and easy to agree with.

"The Word was with God and the Word WAS God." John 1:1 and no, NOTHING is taken out of context. "The WORD (who WAS God) became flesh (Jesus Christ) and dwelt among us." John 1:14 If you don't see that, then you are the one taking it out of context.

Word means spoken words, words, an expression, ideas, that sort of thing. Let me ask you... is God a spoken word or expression?

Let's look at another one: 1 John 5:20: "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we ARE IN HIM (that's the Father) who is true, IN HIS SON Jesus Christ. This (being in the Father AND in the Son) IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.

Let me ask you another question. Who is God?

Son = Jesus
of
God = Father

So is the Son the Father in your belief?

So being in the Father AND being in His Son IS THE TRUE GOD. Again, nothing is taken out of context here.

According to all precedent, the God Jesus is the Son of is the one who Fathered Jesus. Therefore Jesus isn't God, but rather God's begotten offspring of a Son. Do you also deny that Jesus is literally the Son of God or is it just a title?

How about Revelation 5:13-14?, "And EVERY CREATED THING WHICH IS IN HEAVEN AND ON THE EARTH ... I heard saying, 'To Him who sits on the throne (the Father) AND TO THE LAMB (the Son Jesus Christ) be blessing, and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.' And the four living creatures kept saying, 'Amen'. And the elders fell down and worshiped."

I'm also quoting Revelation 5:11-14. The Lamb isn't sitting on the throne around which the angels, living creatures, elders are worshipping.

So since the Lamb is not on the throne and they are encircling the throne then they fell down and worshipped around the throne. So they were not worshipping the Lamb.

Revelation 5
11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels encircling the throne, and the living creatures and the elders. And their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.
14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Did you notice that THE LAMB was NOT INCLUDED IN EVERY CREATED THING? Jesus was NOT created. Yes, His physical body was created inside of Mary's womb, but NOT HIS SPIRIT. His spirit is eternal. Not only that, but HE WAS WORSHIPED RIGHT ALONG WITH THE FATHER WITH EQUAL PRAISE. And we know that ONLY ONE should be rightfully worshiped - God Himself.

The Lamb is a human so he is created.

John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ 31I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.”

Yes, it speaks of 2 separate Beings, He who sits on the throne, the Father, and the Lamb, Jesus, His Son. But at the SAME TIME, NEITHER OF THEM were created AND also notice here THAT THE LAMB DOES NOT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE. RATHER, HE, THE LAMB, JESUS CHRIST, RECEIVES EQUAL WORSHIP RIGHT ALONG WITH THE FATHER. So indeed they are separate Beings, AND AT THE SAME TIME, ONE BEING, THE ONE TRUE GOD.

Jesus doesn't sit on the throne of God, but rather sits at the right hand of God as the Bible says. Do you believe Jesus sits at the right hand position of the throne of God? The bible says he does I guess dozens of times.

Hebrews 8
1The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

Once again, nothing is taken out of context here.

Even if there were NO more verses or passages that show this truth, THESE SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT, but there are many more.

But if you don't acknowledge the truth here - you won't acknowledge the truth shown in all the other passages. Then the problem lies with you rejecting the truth, not with the passages themselves.

You're using a circular argument and an argument from silence to present a false narrative about God. I think you have it mixed up what is happening here. This is Outreach for you. If you reject the Father as the one and only true God then you have an idol according to scripture.