Nothing there about those things not being determined to occur.
So much for common sense, logic and scripture.
In fact those would be the ALL THINGS things God is working out "according to the council OF HIS WILL."
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
So much for common sense, logic and scripture.
In fact those would be the ALL THINGS things God is working out "according to the council OF HIS WILL."
Of course there is
observe
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
temptation happens it is not from God
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.
these things are not from the father therefore he did not determine them
Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
this was not from God
Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;
Again, it's not God's plan they were following. Had God determined it, then it would be God's plan
Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.
Clearly, the hindering did not come from God. Had he determined it, then it would have come from God
1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
God provides a way to avoid temptation. Had he determined it, there would be no way to avoid it
Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Clearly God leaves it to them
your denial come from not giving the verses much thought
Sure. Now prove it.
Temptation is not from God does not negate it from being determined and they would be among the all things God is working our according to the council of His will.
He determines the temptation as well as the way you avoid it if He has determined you do so.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Free will is evidenced by the potential for another direction. If he could actually choose differently, he is free to do so, regardless of what he actually chooses.
God’s decree eliminates the potential to choose differently, therefore there is no freedom from the choice decreed.
1) In what way does my logic fail? Falsify my syllogism!
Do I have any other choice or options? Then the deed is mandated! Forced or coerced does not mean you are held at gunpoint.
Imagine you are starving, and walk into the only restaurant open and look at the menu. You find your favorite steak and tell the waiter what you want, but he says, “that’s not available today”. You try again and again, getting the same response until you get to the last possible option on the menu! He then says “excellent choice”. You ask the waiter why there is only one item available today, and he replies that the owner of the restaurant had over stocked that item and wanted people to order more of it to reduce the surplus.
The owner removed all other possibilities except the one he wanted you to choose. There is no freedom in that choice! You choose what he wants you to choose. And this, according to your theology, by irresistible means.
I get it! There is only one choice I can make. Like my illustration above, the owner left you no option.
Doug
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Either that, or all doesn't mean all without exception.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
This is absurd! If God determines it as necessary, then it is of God! You even say it is God working according to the council of his will. Thus, in your argument, temptation cannot fail but to be of God.
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
There is no reason to think otherwise, because he references ἀνθρώπους, which is the plural and is the word used for “mankind”, human kind in total.
As K. Wuest says,
"There are two words in Greek which mean 'man,' anēr, which refers to a male individual of the human reace, and anthrōpos, which is the racial, generic term, and which has the general idea of 'mankind' " (3, Great Truths to Live By, 46).]
Furthermore, as Peter says, “God is not willing that any should parish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
Since “any should perish” is a reference to anyone that is about to perish, then the “all” is inclusive of the whole of the “any” who are perishing. Since all mankind is perishing, then the “all” that should come to repentance is also the whole of mankind.
Doug
Rockson
Well-known member
Well sorry but that's because YOU DON'T know anything about LOVE. I know that's hard not to take as a put down but the fact is your really don't. Your way of reasoning would have it like a man would want, long for and will a certain lady to be his wife he should according to you arbitrarily make it happen by not giving her the liberty to choose. To you providing such liberty would be a thing of weakness and incompetence . In God's viewpoint providing such is the only thing that makes life worth living. In LOVE there must be LIBERTY!
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Sure, I do. I know how to sing kumbaya.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
In Preaching the Cross of Christ, we cant hold back the offensive Gospel Truth that Salvation is limited to them whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world
God has already written the names of them He has purposed to save in the Lambs Book of Life from the foundation of the world,
Jesus said on one occasion Luke 10:21
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Those are the only ones He was slain, crucified for, so that's an aspect of preaching the Cross.
Not for those who believe scripture
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Sorry that is denial
If God determined it, then it is from God
It;'s amazing how Calvinist claim God is the ultimate cause of all things but then deny it when it suits a particular purpose even though God actively worked to bring it about
No it's not. It's efficient cause is you.
It can fail if it'd intended to and that's not failure.
How do you know there is a potential for another direction? How do you know with any choice you have made you could have chosen otherwise? All presupposing. Philosophy if you will which your selectively okay with.
You could choose differently you simply won't. Even in your system. God is omniscient and has known your choice for an eternity. So if a choice is foreknown for certain, and what God foreknows is truth, then how is it possible at the very moment you choose you could choose differently? You can't and won't. To say otherwise is absurd as you like to say.
Yet you still choose freely without force or coercion.
Your still making a choice.
Because you make a choice. LOL. NO no force or coercion. Judas made a choice yet it was planned, determined and brought about by His hand. The best part? He was held accountable for that choice.
So was Judas forced Doug? Coerced? Let's say God moved His heart to do so. Who's fault was his betrayal? Who was held accountable? God or Judas?
So the murder od His own Son was from God? Yikes dude
Exactly. Only when needed does it mean all without exception.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Simple the elect
So when did you become a universalist
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I stated
Sorry that is denial
If God determined it, then it is from God
It;'s amazing how Calvinist claim God is the ultimate cause of all things but then deny it when it suits a particular purpose even though God actively worked to bring it about
you diverted
but that appear to be your view
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