civic
Well-known member
Amen otherwise God is made a liar.
God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
Pancho,
I have repeatedly given you the answer, and yet you are unwilling to accept it. Why do you run from the testimony of God?
Who believes that Jesus Christ is Lord? The one that confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead.
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." (Rom 10:9-13)
What is the will of God for everyone? Repent and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead.
The passages you refer to have to do with unbelieving Jews, who just like unbelieving Muslims, are false prophets that promote righteousness by works instead of faith in God's Son, Jesus Christ. Start with verse 15 and end at 23, and verse 23 is a quote from Psalms 6:8.
To those who confess and believe in Jesus Christ from the heart, it is easy to distinguish who is a false prophet, one who speaks for themselves instead of God by the what they say and how they act. This can be all the way from ungodly living to religious piety, for both will minimize the Lord Jesus Christ and work to glorify themselves instead. When one does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, one must work to justify their self for that is all they have.
This is different for those who believe, for we do not offer works to justify ourselves before the Lord. We openly confess and believe that He is Lord, that He died for our sins and arose three days later. We believe God's Gospel message that He has justified us to life in the death of His Son, and all we need to do is trust-have faith in God that His own Son's death for our sins justifies us with Him.
We already know Him intimately right now because we are one in spirit with Him. Him in us and us in Him. True believers will not come into condemnation, for they have already passed from death to life.
"For even as the Father raises the dead, and gives life, so also the Son gives life to whomever He wills. For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him. Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (Joh 5:21-24)
The one who is born of God does good to bring glory to God, not for themselves. Our good works do not give justification to eternal life, but prove that we are already justified. Our expressions through word and deed are in genuine love of God and others, being caused by His Spirit living within us.
Who has been born again?...here is the answer.
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. (1John 5:1)
Now, what do you say about the Muslim, Sikh, or anyone else who disbelieves Jesus Christ is God's Son whom He sent into this world to die for our sins and was raised three days later and made Lord and Christ?
Let me tell you straight up, they are not born of God!
And, I fully agree that one who is born again does not continue to practice sin. This includes practicing the sin of unbelief that keeps them from being forgiven and made a new creation with the Spirit of God living within them enliving and empowering them to live rightly from the heart..
The Apostle John said, "He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (Joh 1:11-13)
The one born of God receives-embraces Jesus Christ into their life. The Jewish people rejected Him being equal with God and being God. They rejected Him as Lord. They would not accept His testimony or God's through the Law, the prophets, His Son, His Spirit, nor His Son's Apostles.
Notice what the passages testify to. "to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
It is not a matter of how many good things a man may do, or how many things he repents of, unless He receives and confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, and believes in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, his works are useless. For, as Jesus clearly stated, "whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
Who abides in Christ?...What is the command of God?
"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” (Act 17:30-31)
No no can abide in Christ unless they "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." (Rom 10:9-10)
Jesus even said, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me." (Joh 15:4)
How can they abide in the One they disbelieve in when Jesus Himself said, abide in me, and I in you???
One cannot live from the Words of Jesus Christ by disbelieving in Him.
It does not matter who it is, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ they are condemned already.
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
(Joh 3:17-18)
The day of judgment will come and according to Jesus Christ, "The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life", and "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (Joh 3:17-18)
Pancho, you are promoting a false gospel. One that will damn those who believe you. The smoothness of your presentation ensnares those who are ignorant and weak, but you cannot overcome the Way, the Truth, and the Life with your words. His Words bring eternal life even now in the flesh, while your brings enslavement to sin and keeps one in a state of condemnation with the expectancy God will not send them to hell. I have requested that you repent many times now from your disbelief of who Jesus Christ is, and I ask again along with strong words of truth that you may hear and know that you stand opposed to God by disbelieving in His own Son and talking against His testimony. I sincerely request that you repent-have a change of mind about your unbelief of Jesus Christ and live!
Please do not confuse the Old Covevant with the New one that was inaugurated with the blood of God's own Son. And please don't think it has been by works that God credits mankind righteousness. "since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"No unbelief made him (Abraham) waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." (Rom 4:20-25)
God Bless
civic
Well-known member
Jesus said only the "doers" of His sayings will withstand the storms of this life, therefore, those who are "doers" of His Sayings, are the "Faithful". This is confirmed by the entire Bible's examples of men of Faith. As Paul teaches, a man must "Yield themselves" to God and their "members" (walk, thoughts, actions etc.) as instruments of righteousness unto God. And when we do, we become "Servants of God's Righteousness", AKA, the Faithful. But many religious men of this world that call Jesus Lord, Lord, don't believe what Jesus and Paul teaches, and have adopted a different path promoted by men who have "Transformed themselves" into Apostles of Christ, like Civic and Kenneth Copeland just to name a couple. Promoting the false religious philosophy that God is not capable of bringing even "one" sinner, into His Righteousness. "no not one", a teaching easily exposed as wicked by simply believing the Bible. Jesus said to "Take Heed" we are not deceived by these "many".
This world's religious system teaches against this "Faith" as Jesus and Paul describe it, and against the examples of Faith given to us in the entire Bible. This same religious system preaches to the world that God, in the Law and Prophets, placed impossible instructions on the backs of men who trusted Him, lied to men about their ability to obey Him, then slaughtered thousands who disobedience to Him. And so they created their own god, in the likeness of a long haired, very handsome man, they created their own judgments, rejecting God's, and their own high days, in worship of this created image of God after the likeness of man, and they reject the Faith of the Jesus "of the bible", and those who deny themselves, and "Yield themselves" or as Jesus instructs, "Live By" that Faith that HE and the examples of Righteous men in the Bible lived by.
So adopting and living by the philosophies of this world's religious system, is not "putting on Christ by faith". Jesus called it "Working iniquity".
At least, this is what the Jesus "of the bible" says. You don't have to adopt and promote this world's religious system, even though it is a most popular tradition of this world. You too, can be a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, but you will need the "Faith" that was in Christ Jesus, to do so.
And as the Jesus "of the Bible" said;
Luke 18: 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Truly the Path is narrow, and few be that find it. Let's turn away from the religious businesses and sects of this world adopted, defended and promoted by so "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and become "Doers" of Christ's Sayings, and "Seek the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness". And when we find it, "Live by" it, as instructed.
Dizerner
Active member
You are just presuming "doers" here means salvation by righteous works, and that is forced into the passage (esiegeted).
Our obedience does not merit our salvation, so all righteousness is bestowed upon sinners as a gift of grace.
I understand you are here to promote this your own specific religious business to others as you compete against other religious businesses for contributing members, without which your religious business could not survive. This religious tradition of this world has been practiced since before the Pharisees adopted it. This is your mission here on this forum. And I have always agreed and believed that the death of the Passover Lamb reconciled all men to God, as I have said over and over, if you had any honesty in your heart at all, you would know this.
But in the Holy Scriptures, Abram was called to "Deny himself, pick up his life's experiences, and follow God as "HE showed him in the way that he should go". And Abrahm obeyed God.
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him".
He was renewed in the spirit of his mind, and became the New Man, Abraham "Which after God was created in righteousness and true holiness". He was "born again", given His sins were forgiven by the same exact atonement, by the death of the Same Passover Lamb, that my sins were forgiven by. Your religious business doesn't teach this even though it is true.
Israel had lost their way in Egypt, and the Same God sent them Moses to "Show them in the way that they should go". They were called to "Deny themselves, pick up their life's experiences, and follow Moses as "HE showed them God's instruction, in the way that they should go". They were reconciled to God by the Same death of the same Passover Lamb that Abraham and I were reconciled to God by. But only Caleb and Joshua "Put on the New Man" which after God is created in righteousness and true Holiness.
Your religious business doesn't teach this, even though it's true.
I am called by the Same God through His Begotten Son Jesus, to deny myself, pick up my life's experience, and follow HIM, as HE shows me God's instruction, in the way that I should go. Why on earth, would I reject the teaching of the entire Bible, just to join some feel-good religious club that has the Oracles of God, but doesn't believe Him.
The Jesus "of the bible", who I serve, has already told me all about your adopted religion Civic. He has given me examples of your religion ever since Eve was convinced to listen to the "other voice" in the garden, who also professed to know God. I know you must ridicule me, demean me, as you do everyone who doesn't adopt and promote your religious business. I would expect nothing different as I believe everything Jesus says, and am committed to being a "doer" of His Sayings, not just a hearer.
But there might be others on this forum who also sees the utter hypocrisy of this world's religions that must build Shrines of worship, with bells and singing all to be seen and heard of men, as if God needs men to compete in worship of Him in this manner. Even if only ONE person questions the motivation of all this world's religious businesses and sects, all living by and promoting different traditions, high days and philosophies, but all having one thing in common with the Pharisees, they are full well reject the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God, that they might live by their own manmade religious traditions. If only One person can come to trust in the Jesus "of the Bible" alone, to show them in the way that they should go, it's worth all the insults, name calling and ridicule.
I understand you have adopted a religious sect of this world and are promoting its philosophies. But you were shown in your own Bible, that a religious philosophy you have adopted and are promoting to others is a wickedness. The falsehood that God was/is incapable to bringing even One person into His Righteousness by His instruction in Righteousness. And even after you were shown, even to the point of having to ignore what is actually written, you continue to believe and promote this falsehood. If you are deceived about David and Paul's teaching concerning the "workers of iniquity", which you clearly are, then how can you know the truth about what it means to be a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings?
What you are doing is twisting and molding the Scriptures to fit your own preconceived religious philosophies, which means you must completely ignore some of the Christ's Sayings or twist it to mean something it doesn't.
I was deceived in the same manner until God called me out of my father's religious, just as HE called Abraham, Peter, Israel and Paul.
"Many" are called, it is written. I am just hoping you might consider, and "Yield yourself" to God as Paul teaches, and your members as instruments of Righteousness, unto God, as Paul teaches. And become a "Servant of God's Righteousness" not the religious philosophies of the Baptists, or JW's or Calvinists or whichever of this world's religious business or sect you have adopted, which promote the falsehood that God was not able to bring even ONE sinner into His Righteousness.
Neither Paul nor David promoted this philosophy. Why not check into it yourself, in the quiet, private confines of your own closet, and be corrected. Not by me, but by what is Actually Written in your own Bible.
That is what I advocate for.
Dizerner
Active member
Lol, me and Paul both.
not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ (Phil. 3:9 NKJ)
I'm in good company.
Forsake your trust in your menstrual rags and trust alone in the Cross of Christ.
Without God, there is No Christ, there is NO atonement, there is No Passover Lamb of God.
Without the shedding of your old, disobedient, disrespectful to God "life", there is no forgiveness of sins. Bible 101.
Unless God gives you to the Jesus "of the Bible", there is no forgiveness of your Sins. Bible 101.
Consider the disrespect and belittling of the Jesus "of the bible" that is implied in your adopted religious business. We are awaiting the Christ's Glorious return. The Earth Groans in anticipation of the Christ's Glorious return. We all will know when HE returns, so HE has Yet to Return because we know it didn't happen, and we just missed it. If HE doesn't Return, there is "NO Kingdom of God", NO Atonement, NO Mansion in heaven. If HE never returns, this will mean HE didn't raise from the dead.
So we all look for HIS Glorious Prophesied Return, in belief/Faith that HE Promised us before HE ascended, and we all know HE has not yet returned.
But in order to justify this world's lawless religions, their images of God in the likeness of man, their pagan high days that they placed Jesus Name on, their rejection of God's Judgments, they preach that Jesus has already "Fulfilled All" of His Prophesies? That God's Law is abolished, "because ALL has already been fulfilled". So when Jesus, seeing your religion coming, makes the following declaration:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
But they, through you, convince as many as will listen to them, that Jesus has already "Fulfilled ALL" so God's instruction in righteousness is abolished, convincing them to also reject God's instruction in Righteousness, His Judgments, His Statutes, making them, as Jesus said, "twofold more the child of hell than yourselves". When the most important part of His Gospel, the part that makes everything else relevant, important, Holy, has yet to be fulfilled.
I know you cannot "see" or to consider any of these Scriptural truths, and Jesus did say offenses with come. But of those reading along, are these things not worthy of consideration? Doesn't Jesus' Warnings about this world's "many" who come in His Name warrant some consideration? When HE returns, will HE find any faith in this world?
Surely the Words of the Christ are worth more being used as a religious bumper sticker, or justification for refusing to "Live by" His Father's Words.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I don't think so, civic.Yes @Joe gives great apologetic responses
I think that the answers of @Joe lead to the most absurd and immoral conclusions in Christian soteriology.
- The vision from @Joe denies the reality of the forgiveness and transformation performed by the Holy Spirit in people from all religions, including my own personal experience of forgiveness and renewal.
- The vision from @Joe is in opposition of Jesus explicit instructions on how to tell the true from the false teachers... the good from the bad tree, placing Theology above fruits.
- Such vision damns millions of our beloved brothers to the eternal flames of hell, which is an act of genocide.
- Such vision makes Paul's reference to confession a matter of theological correctness rather than spiritual change, which twists the purpose of the crucifixion and resurrection of Lord Jesus
- Such vision demands to repent from a theological view as if it were sinful, distorting the meaning and purpose of sin and repentance.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
If there were literalism in blood atonement then God had not forgiven the sins people without any other requirement than a broken heart, a genuine repentance.
The cross is a symbol and does not exist anymore.
The blood is a symbol and does not exist anymore.
The words of Jesus, however, are with us and are the source of eternal life.
Let's follow the words of Jesus. Those words are his body and his blood.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Of course. That's the sensible thing to do.
If a person finds his god unacceptable and such god is making her unhappy, that person MUST reject such god immediately.
True faith, true religion, brings joy and peace and is not at odds with love and justice.
If your religion sends 25 million of Sikhs and 15 million Jews to eternal torment because of their religious views, supporting a genocide at the time of resurrection, why are you waiting for? You must leave that religion TODAY, IMMEDIATELY!
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I should not accept absurd and immoral answers, my friend. Your answers are absurd and immoral.
They are alien of the God of the Bible, the God of the Quran, the God of reason and science, the God of Jesus, the God of my childhood.
The testimony of God in my mind and in Scriptures tells me that He will not despise a contrite, broken heart, whatever the religion of the sinner.
I'm not running from such testimony. I'm rather trying to testify publicly of such truth in this Forum.
Your understanding of forgiveness is OT level. You are living in the past. That's what all Muslims do such as you. You call yourself a Baha'i but your statements clearly reak of Islamic beliefs. You worship a god (allah) who denies the Cross, mankind's only path to life, because he is a god of death. Allah has been exposed as a demon that has no power over death. Allah is a god of death. Fundamentally, you are a Muslim. It's time that you caught up with what has been revealed directly to man by God Himself these past 2000 years. You can continue to scoff at the Gospel (Cross, Resurrection, Ascension, Pentecost) at your own risk. I highly advise against you continuing to do so.
Dizerner
Active member
I'd say he's more of a new age humanistic moralist, that minimizes sin, and lowers God's standard.
The problem of course, is contrition can be completely external, as there is no sincere contrition without trust in Christ.
Any truly contrite man will accept Christ and repent the moment Christ is presented, but all we get here is prideful rebellion against Christ.
The problem of course, is contrition can be completely external, as there is no sincere contrition without trust in Christ.
Any truly contrite man will accept Christ and repent the moment Christ is presented, but all we get here is prideful rebellion against Christ.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The thing some Evangelicals in the forum seem to care less is sin, and, consequently, holiness.
Since everybody is sinful, and salvation is unrelated to holiness, what matters is confession of an orthodox creed based on Jesus deity,. PSA and physical resurrection. Grace is replaced by the merit of intellectual assent.
For example, Oskar Schindler, the Jews he saved, and the Nazis who wanted to kill them, they are all thrown in the same basket because God doesn’t care about vices or virtues. He cares about adhering to the right doctrines and rejecting the false ones.
Salvation, under this morbid perspective, is salvation from hell in the afterlife, rather than a change in a spiritual situation in this life.
I agree, but “trust in Christ” is not exactly what you and your confused spiritual leaders think and preach.
Trust in Christ means trust in the “treatment” prescribed by Doctor Christ: repentance and new birth into a life of love… Things that are undeserved gifts of God. Trust in Christ means making Christ gospel the ruler or lord of our lives.
This why we can say that any man who loves his neighbor and keeps God commandments is in Chirst, trust in Christ and abides in God.
I am convinced that what I say has robust biblical support and I am ready to defend it as firmly, repeatedly, rationally and passionately as needed.
I agree, but “accepting Christ” is not exactly what you and your confused pastors think and preach.
With such an upside-down Theology, the believer may end up in a situation where faith has become superstition, hell an absurd, paradise an illusion, and salvation paranoia.
That's Pancho Frijole's big problem. He is convinced his denial of Christ is based on robust biblical support. He will deny scripture because of this metanarrative he has formed. He will "defend it as firmly, repeatedly, rationally and passionately as needed." Maybe he can explain what acceptance of Christ is if not trusting Christ as the only source of justification and reconciling with God. Maybe he will argue for the virtues of an Israel government that is now killing off Palestinians despite the history shared of the holocaust.
Johann
Well-known member
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