Great. So of a choice is foreknown for certain can you choose otherwise?
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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TibiasDad
Well-known member
And I said the question is not about certainty, but about whose choice determines the certainty. If God’s choice is first then his choice cannot be trumped by man’s choice. Man has no choice of his own for God has chosen for him, therefore, man has no freedom to choose contrary to God. Compatibilism is negated.
Man controls his own choices and therefore, his destiny. God knows how he will choose, but God does not make the choice.
God’s aseity has nothing to do with his omniscience. Omniscience is a character trait of his being, aseity simply says he is self-existence and needs nothing outside of himself to be existent.
Theoretically, God can be self existent and not be omniscient.
Doug
Exactly
He is self existent and that includes His knowledge. Knowledge is part of His existence. In your view His knowledge is dependent on your choices.
God does not choose for you. You choose. Just as Paul choose to pen what God determined His word would be. His did so freely free from force or coercion. Compatibilism stands.
The very Bible you read is a product of compatibilism.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Great, then you agree that Compatibilism is negated!
Not necessarily! Aseity is solely about the capacity to exist in and of oneself. God needs nothing outside of himself to exist. That is all that it means. It says nothing about any of attribute or nature of being.
Then what is his decree? Is that not the result of a choice that “whatsoever comes to pass” must necessarily to be. From that point on, (a point before creation has even begun, a point when there are no human beings in existence,) the yet to be creature known as man, has no choice. His actions, both good and evil, are predetermined to happen.
Doug
civic
Well-known member
Amen
Is that what I said Doug? Your starting to get a little desperate.
Aseity includes God's knowledge. He is not dependent on your foreseen choices for said knowledge. Your crystal ball god. Aseity is a attribute of God.
You do have a choice and you make choices freely. The Bible, Acts 4:27,28 being the prime examples. Yet they are determined.
Knowledge is part of His existence. Hence the attribute called omniscience.
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but the content of his knowledge does not determine his existence
Who said it did?
You imply that. Take it for what it's worth.
It's worth nothing as you provide no real justification for your claim
The claim was yours, hence my question, "who said that"?
Wrong you appealed to God's aseity as an argument against a proper understanding of God's foreknowledgeThe claim was yours, hence my question, "who said that"?
Yup, and I was correct.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Given that your “Exactly” was not directly referenced to a specific aspect of my comments, I could only assume, based on your tendencies in your previous posting history, that your one word response was in regard to my initial paragraph, which ended with “compatibilism is negated.”
Yes, Aseity is an attribute, as is Omniscience, but being all knowing doesn’t not mean you are self existent. Neither does being self existent infer omniscience. All the attributes together are what defines God as being God.
Foreknowledge does not mean that God is dependent on my choices, it merely says God knows what we will choose before we choose it.
I would suggest that your argument limits the omnipotence and sovereignty of God in that God is incapable of choosing to allow man to choose freely, independently of God’s desires or choice, or that he cannot cause his desired outcomes after the fact on a contrary human decision.
You do realize that your saying this is not a proof of its validity?
Can God not ensure that Christ would die without decreeing all things meticulously? Furthermore, even if God did preordain the specific actions by Pilate and the other, it does not follow that God has preordained every event that has ever happened, including the very words we choose in this conversation.
Doug
And you would be incorrect. Your on a roll.
His knowledge is dependent on your foreseen choices. When did He become aware of your choices?
Right, God has to do a work around your choices to determine the future. Would that include the crucifixion? Does Acts 4:27,28 sound like He is working around your almighty free will?
Doug, I only need one Biblical example to negate your position. Now it's well that does not mean all events are predetermined. Along with the example of scripture itself.
Incompatiblism is debunked
civic
Well-known member
yes he is in that deep river of De Nile.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I note that you do not care to explain to what specific part of my comments ‘exactly’ refers. Perhaps being clearer in your writing would be helpful to understand your meaning.
Can you explain the fullness of God? Again, I don’t know how God knows all things about the future, and I think it is foolhardy for men to try and fully explain how God can do many of the things he can do. Faith needs no such knowledge. God knows, and that is sufficient for me. The implications of him having to preordain in order to know anything raises way too many red flags about those things about God that we can understand that I cannot find any reason, biblical or otherwise to believe in predestination in the sense that you espouse.
Straw man argument! I have never said anything to imply my will is almighty.
To say that one verse is all you need demonstrates the weakness of your position. You are relying on assumptions of truth.
If “it's well that does not mean all events are predetermined”, then Incompatiblism is not debunked.
Doug
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