The Elect

TedT said:
Great verses of truth but they are referring to sinners who have no free will until they are regenerated and reborn. Sinners are given the choice to prove their choice is meaningless without HIS regenerative spirit:
Berean Standard Bible
Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. To believe we are enslaved to sin at the same time we have a free will is deep deep doublethink from unresolved contradiction.

The people with a free will I write about is everyone created in HIS image before they have chosen to rebel against HIM or HIS command before they are sown into this world as sinners already, some condemned already....
Click to expand...
Sorry no

The text clearly assumes they have the ability to make that choice

and btw the last reference in context notes

Deuteronomy 30:11–14 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
God doesn't create a special group of "damned" people. We are all "damned" (I prefer fallen or slaves to sin) without Christ. That's our default state.
Click to expand...
This does not get around the fact that light cannot create darkness and love cannot create hate... To create us as evil and evil enought o be damned is too much for me, it scorns too much scripture:

Light cannot create darkness:
Your interpretation means that light CAN create darkness....that there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. This is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Your theology cays a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

You are seduced by the logic that to be created less than GOD must mean we are sinful in some way by our creation but that logic is false and, imCo, leaning to your own understanding has gotten you off:
Berean Standard Bible
Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;

It is far easier for me to believe that everyone created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper bride for HIM, was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by their free will to either put their faith, an unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD and Saviour and so become HIS elect,
OR
to chose to put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea HE was lying about HIS divinity and being our only saviour from sin and, as a liar HE was the first sinner in creation and therefore to be rebuked as a false god lying about the legal and natural consequences of making this choice.

All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from any part of creating us as sinful or evil.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes Blasphemy, to say God Almighty tried to do something ???? Here's God friend Ps 115:1-3

Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Dan 4:35-37
34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
In in His Purposes of Salvation Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

To say the Almighty tried to do something is Blasphemous to the Highest Heavens, an attack of His Throne
Click to expand...
You know that none of us would even be created had God known how bad man would become:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Giving man free will, turned out to be a mistake according to scripture. God wished He had not created man. Because man acted extremely wickedly.
 
TedT said:
This does not get around the fact that light cannot create darkness and love cannot create hate... To create us as evil and evil enought o be damned is too much for me, it scorns too much scripture:

Light cannot create darkness:
Your interpretation means that light CAN create darkness....that there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. This is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Your theology cays a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

You are seduced by the logic that to be created less than GOD must mean we are sinful in some way by our creation but that logic is false and, imCo, leaning to your own understanding has gotten you off:
Berean Standard Bible
Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;

It is far easier for me to believe that everyone created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper bride for HIM, was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by their free will to either put their faith, an unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD and Saviour and so become HIS elect,
OR
to chose to put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea HE was lying about HIS divinity and being our only saviour from sin and, as a liar HE was the first sinner in creation and therefore to be rebuked as a false god lying about the legal and natural consequences of making this choice.

All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from any part of creating us as sinful or evil.
Click to expand...

You base everything on your philosophy of good and love So you're blind to what scripture actually says.

You quoted this, but you should take it to heart:

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;
 
FutureAndAHope said:
You know that none of us would even be created had God known how bad man would become:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Giving man free will, turned out to be a mistake according to scripture. God wished He had not created man. Because man acted extremely wickedly.
Click to expand...
I believe this indicates that God would start over. Not that God didn't know the possibly or full impact of freewill within humanity. God did start over with Noah. God offered to start over with Moses. Just my thoughts.
 
civic said:
@brightfame52 does and I know several others who believe that as well
Click to expand...
Ok. I could be wrong. Maybe I misrepresent Calvinism.

But the Calvinists I have associated with all agree with me that God makes us all for his own purposes. He doesn't create anyone for the mere purpose of damning them. In fact, even if all that can be said about any other reason for creating them besides damning them is his Rom 9 use of them —to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy— that is enough reason right there.

But, besides that, he uses the reprobate for "whittling the raw material of the elect" shaping them to his specifications, and he uses the reprobate for the hardening of some. He has all sorts of reasons for creating them, besides his mere damnation of them.

God uses ALL things for good.
 
makesends said:
You don't understand that God made the whole universe, including all the creatures within it, for his own purposes? Humans, the elect and the reprobate, are all created for God's use of them.
Click to expand...
Nowhere do we read God created men to be reprobates

God can use all men, but he did not create men to be reprobates

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (ESV) — 29 See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.
 
FutureAndAHope said:
Giving man free will, turned out to be a mistake according to scripture.
Click to expand...
Without our free will
- no one would be guilty for sin as there could be no mens rea,
- true love would not exist,
- there could be no true heavenly marriage that, as the culmination of HIS work with us, implies it is the purpose for our creation. YHWH is not a Borg to be content with a Stepford wife.

Therefore to fulfil HIS purpose for our creation, HE had to give us a will free from any coercion to have faith in HIM and free from any coercion to scorn HIM. This means HE knew and accepted that some, maybe a lot of people, could and might rebel against HIM.

BUT I do not accept that HE knew who would end in hell before their creation but created them anyway... HE has taught us about love, about righteousness and about justice in a way which we can understand and it is obvious that the current accepted definition of HIS omniscience that HE knew who would end in hell before their creation but created them anyway is wrongly decided as it does not fit what we have learned about love, righteousness and justice.

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe ALL HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree something into creation HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves.

I disagree that HE was dismayed or discouraged by the evil our free will has caused since the answer to our evil, both the gospel of salvation and the doctrine of eternal divine punishment were decided before the foundation of the world.
My view of this world is that Earth is a prison planet, Rev 12:4-9, used to sequester the holy and elect people of heaven from the predations of the demonic reprobate. This prison planet has a rehab centre in it for the redemption of those HE calls HIS elect, those members of HIS family by faith who have sinned by rebelling against HIS command for them to come out from among the
condemned reprobate in their hearts so these eternally evil ones can face judgement.

Since it is said that all things in this world are determined by GOD, I believe that all is well here, the full redemption of the sinful people of HIS kingdom is on course and on time and the plan for the judgement day is inevitable and perfectly set into motion...and in this HE is well pleased.

I also see the distinct possibility that since Satan and his demons know their end as inevitable because they have seen the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power, Rom 1:18-20 with Job 38:7, that they are not trying to win their battle against HIM any longer but are trying to subvert HIS Church, HIS sinful sheep, into such sin that HE is so disgusted at their intransigence against HIM that HE will commit suicide and end it all...but this plan too is doomed in the face of HIS loving kindness to HIS creation. This might be the source of the idea that giving us our free will was a mistake within HIS purpose for us when in fact our free will was an absolute necessity to fulfill HIS purpose in our creation.
 
makesends said:
You don't understand that God made the whole universe, including all the creatures within it, for his own purposes? Humans, the elect and the reprobate, are all created for God's use of them.
Click to expand...
GOD's USE of them??? That's a little cold hearted, neh?

Since the whole story or GOD's work with sinful mankind culminates with the judgement day and the heavenly marriage to HIS sanctified church, I contend that this ending was in fact the whole purpose for our creation and the interlude of mankind on earth was merely a step in the purpose to sanctify HIS sinful church so the judgement of the demonic reprobate could proceed, Matt 13:27-30, and HIS marriage to HIS creation could be fulfilled.

Use indeed... HE created out of love and the desire to share and greatly expand the amount of love in existence by creating a Bride for HIMself able to share the communion, fellowship and love within the telepathic unity of GOD.
 
TedT said:
Without our free will
- no one would be guilty for sin as there could be no mens rea,
- true love would not exist,
- there could be no true heavenly marriage that, as the culmination of HIS work with us, implies it is the purpose for our creation. YHWH is not a Borg to be content with a Stepford wife.

Therefore to fulfil HIS purpose for our creation, HE had to give us a will free from any coercion to have faith in HIM and free from any coercion to scorn HIM. This means HE knew and accepted that some, maybe a lot of people, could and might rebel against HIM.

BUT I do not accept that HE knew who would end in hell before their creation but created them anyway... HE has taught us about love, about righteousness and about justice in a way which we can understand and it is obvious that the current accepted definition of HIS omniscience that HE knew who would end in hell before their creation but created them anyway is wrongly decided as it does not fit what we have learned about love, righteousness and justice.

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe ALL HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree something into creation HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves.

I disagree that HE was dismayed or discouraged by the evil our free will has caused since the answer to our evil, both the gospel of salvation and the doctrine of eternal divine punishment were decided before the foundation of the world.
My view of this world is that Earth is a prison planet, Rev 12:4-9, used to sequester the holy and elect people of heaven from the predations of the demonic reprobate. This prison planet has a rehab centre in it for the redemption of those HE calls HIS elect, those members of HIS family by faith who have sinned by rebelling against HIS command for them to come out from among the
condemned reprobate in their hearts so these eternally evil ones can face judgement.

Since it is said that all things in this world are determined by GOD, I believe that all is well here, the full redemption of the sinful people of HIS kingdom is on course and on time and the plan for the judgement day is inevitable and perfectly set into motion...and in this HE is well pleased.

I also see the distinct possibility that since Satan and his demons know their end as inevitable because they have seen the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power, Rom 1:18-20 with Job 38:7, that they are not trying to win their battle against HIM any longer but are trying to subvert HIS Church, HIS sinful sheep, into such sin that HE is so disgusted at their intransigence against HIM that HE will commit suicide and end it all...but this plan too is doomed in the face of HIS loving kindness to HIS creation. This might be the source of the idea that giving us our free will was a mistake within HIS purpose for us when in fact our free will was an absolute necessity to fulfill HIS purpose in our creation.
Click to expand...
Mans will wasnt free from the Divine purpose to sin, but it was nevertheless accountable for its deliberate sin
 
TedT said:
Wow...where do you get this type of...stuff, from????
Click to expand...
Gods Eternal Purpose in Jesus Christ Eph 3:11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
 
TedT said:
Without our free will
- no one would be guilty for sin as there could be no mens rea,
- true love would not exist,
- there could be no true heavenly marriage that, as the culmination of HIS work with us, implies it is the purpose for our creation. YHWH is not a Borg to be content with a Stepford wife.

Therefore to fulfil HIS purpose for our creation, HE had to give us a will free from any coercion to have faith in HIM and free from any coercion to scorn HIM. This means HE knew and accepted that some, maybe a lot of people, could and might rebel against HIM.

BUT I do not accept that HE knew who would end in hell before their creation but created them anyway... HE has taught us about love, about righteousness and about justice in a way which we can understand and it is obvious that the current accepted definition of HIS omniscience that HE knew who would end in hell before their creation but created them anyway is wrongly decided as it does not fit what we have learned about love, righteousness and justice.

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe ALL HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree something into creation HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves.

I disagree that HE was dismayed or discouraged by the evil our free will has caused since the answer to our evil, both the gospel of salvation and the doctrine of eternal divine punishment were decided before the foundation of the world.
My view of this world is that Earth is a prison planet, Rev 12:4-9, used to sequester the holy and elect people of heaven from the predations of the demonic reprobate. This prison planet has a rehab centre in it for the redemption of those HE calls HIS elect, those members of HIS family by faith who have sinned by rebelling against HIS command for them to come out from among the
condemned reprobate in their hearts so these eternally evil ones can face judgement.

Since it is said that all things in this world are determined by GOD, I believe that all is well here, the full redemption of the sinful people of HIS kingdom is on course and on time and the plan for the judgement day is inevitable and perfectly set into motion...and in this HE is well pleased.

I also see the distinct possibility that since Satan and his demons know their end as inevitable because they have seen the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power, Rom 1:18-20 with Job 38:7, that they are not trying to win their battle against HIM any longer but are trying to subvert HIS Church, HIS sinful sheep, into such sin that HE is so disgusted at their intransigence against HIM that HE will commit suicide and end it all...but this plan too is doomed in the face of HIS loving kindness to HIS creation. This might be the source of the idea that giving us our free will was a mistake within HIS purpose for us when in fact our free will was an absolute necessity to fulfill HIS purpose in our creation.
Click to expand...

Again, you're relying on your personal philosophy instead of scripture.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

You see scripture describing election, predestination, Romans 8, 9, etc., and you don't like it. So you retreat into your personal philosophy of free will and love. That's not trusting God.
 
TedT said:
GOD's USE of them??? That's a little cold hearted, neh?

Since the whole story or GOD's work with sinful mankind culminates with the judgement day and the heavenly marriage to HIS sanctified church, I contend that this ending was in fact the whole purpose for our creation and the interlude of mankind on earth was merely a step in the purpose to sanctify HIS sinful church so the judgement of the demonic reprobate could proceed, Matt 13:27-30, and HIS marriage to HIS creation could be fulfilled.

Use indeed... HE created out of love and the desire to share and greatly expand the amount of love in existence by creating a Bride for HIMself able to share the communion, fellowship and love within the telepathic unity of GOD.
Click to expand...
It's God's use of them. How can that be cold-hearted?

What you posit there —"Since the whole story or GOD's work with sinful mankind culminates with the judgement day and the heavenly marriage to HIS sanctified church, I contend that this ending was in fact the whole purpose for our creation and the interlude of mankind on earth was merely a step in the purpose to sanctify HIS sinful church so the judgement of the demonic reprobate could proceed, Matt 13:27-30, and HIS marriage to HIS creation could be fulfilled."— is very good, but your 'take-away' from it demonstrates a self-deterministic worldview. To me, what you posit there in your middle paragraph demonstrates my point very well. It shows his use of his creation, i.e. "for his purposes", just as Scripture shows.

What's wrong with that?
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Again, you're relying on your personal philosophy instead of scripture.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

You see scripture describing election, predestination, Romans 8, 9, etc., and you don't like it. So you retreat into your personal philosophy of free will and love. That's not trusting God.
Click to expand...
Except nowhere do we see unconditional election to salvation. Nowhere do we see predestination is other the determination of the destiny of those that are in a relationship with God. Nothing in Romans 8 or 9 teaches your doctrine

One must misread both to come up with your doctrine.
 

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