praise_yeshua
Well-known member
He has explained himself and all you've done is latch on to this.
I've told my children their entire lives that it is dangerous to believe your own lies.
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
I've told my children their entire lives that it is dangerous to believe your own lies.
Unfortunate
brightfame52
Well-known member
My theology is here in Rom 9:18-22
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Nope
nothing there shows God created and determined that end for Israel
God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson
fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s
2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes Rom 9 is where I get my theology that God created some of mankind as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction
You mean which you misread
The text does not state God fitted them for destruction
God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson
fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s
brightfame52
Well-known member
The passage says it loud and clear, you cant see it. Its Middle/Passive, God is the first cause of them making themselves worthy of wrath and destruction, so He torments them Justly. Even though He was and is th first cause, they are still guilty of their wrong doing, Brilliant
civic
Well-known member
I guess brilliant means sadistic in your world
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its Gods Wisdom, to create beings to punish them eternally and cause them to make themselves blameworthy.
civic
Well-known member
Yes that’s the definition of sadistic
Sorry there is nothing in the passage about God fitting them to destruction
Not casual
God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson
1 Thessalonians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s
2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
FutureAndAHope
Member
Yes, but let's look at who God hardens. Romans 9:22 states "endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath" This fits with the idea that God first tried to save, on many occasions, but eventually gave up and gave them to a wrathful plan.
As Romans 1 says God "first" showed them who He was, but they chose to reject Him.
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened Professing to be wise, they became fools, ... And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (NKJV, Romans 1:21-28)
The early church also spoke of this as a self-blinding: Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] in Against Heresies talks of blindness coming only from a person’s self-rejection of the word of God.
4. ... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. (Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39 -End)
He further shows that Pharaoh was not hardened by God firstly, but rather that Pharaoh had previously “set God at naught” and then God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. He states that those who want the light will be given revelation.
Refutation of the Arguments of the Marcionites, Who Attempted to Show That God Was the Author of Sin, Because He Blinded Pharaoh and His Servants.
1. “But,” say they, “God hardened the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants.” ... For one and the same God [that blesses others] inflicts blindness upon those who do not believe, but who set Him at naught; ... but to those who believe in Him and follow Him, He grants a fuller and greater illumination of mind. In accordance with this word, therefore, does the apostle say, in ... the Corinthians: “In whom the this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine [unto them].” And again, in that to the Romans: “And as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient.” Speaking of antichrist, too, he says clearly in the Second to the Thessalonians: “And for this cause God shall send them the working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but consented to iniquity.”
2. ...[God knowing those who will not believe] has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves, ...He did also at that time give over to their unbelief, Pharaoh, who never would have believed, along with those who were with him? As the Word spake to Moses from the bush: “And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, unless by a mighty hand.” And for the reason that the Lord spake in parables, and brought blindness upon Israel, that seeing they might not see, since He knew the [spirit of] unbelief in them, for the same reason did He harden Pharaoh’s heart; ... (Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 29)
The person hardened by God may well say, as Pharaoh you caused me to reject your words:
But it was their self-rejection of God that led to blindness.
References
Rev. Rambaut W. H., 1867 Against Heresies | Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1, eSword, eBook, accessed 16 April 2023, <https://www.e-sword.net>.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes it is, unfortunately you cant see it
brightfame52
Well-known member
God tried to save ? More Blasphemy. God created some men as vessels of wrath and fitted them as they fitted themselves for destruction
Which forces the idea that since eternal death in banishment to the outer darkness is a fact, then they must have made a free will decision which forced HIM to condemn them.
Sigh....
And?
Again its because it is not there
Sorry there is nothing in the passage about God fitting them to destruction
Not casual
God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson
1 Thessalonians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s
2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
It's not what you can read into scripture but that which you can read out
brightfame52
Well-known member
You can't see it
FutureAndAHope
Member
Blasphemy. You are kidding, right?
The real God "Is love" (1 Jn 4:16), and because He loved the world gave His Son (John 3:16), that as many as would put their faith in him (1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:3-6) will not perish. Yes, He damns those who delight in evil (John 3:19-20), who refuse to come to the light. God has a reason for the damnation of the unjust, they refuse to walk in the light.
Your God has no reason to damn the wicked other than He takes pleasure in it.
Not sure who is Blaspheming, but I am pretty sure it is not me.
