civic
Well-known member
Definitely not you !
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Again its because it is not there
Sorry there is nothing in the passage about God fitting them to destruction
Not casual
God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson
1 Thessalonians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s
2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
It's not what you can read into scripture but that which you can read out
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes Blasphemy, to say God Almighty tried to do something ???? Here's God friend Ps 115:1-3
Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Dan 4:35-37
34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
In in His Purposes of Salvation Eph 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
To say the Almighty tried to do something is Blasphemous to the Highest Heavens, an attack of His Throne
brightfame52
Well-known member
You cant see it, you must have eyes to see, that Gods business. God hides Truth from some people Matt 11:25-26
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Truth is hidden from the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.
Apparently the truth is hid from you
Sorry there is still nothing in the passage about God fitting them to destruction
Not casual
God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson
1 Thessalonians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s
2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
It's not what you can read into scripture but that which you can read out
brightfame52
Well-known member
Apparently from you, its clear as the noon day sun to me that God created some vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction, and since He is the first cause, they fit themselves for destruction, and so He is Just in their damnation which He purposed before they were created, Brilliant.
makesends
Well-known member
Who is saying he creates them "just to damn them"? If that is what you are saying that Calvinism claims, you are presenting a strawman to beat up on.
except the text says no such thing
Apparently the truth is hid from you
Sorry there is still nothing in the passage about God fitting them to destruction
Not casual
God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson
1 Thessalonians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s
2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
It's not what you can read into scripture but that which you can read out
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
@brightfame52 does and I know several others who believe that as well
For us to have a free will, by definition that means we are self determining. Therefore I contend that we chose our fates as either elect or reprobate. For the elect who rebelled against the call for the judgment of the reprobate, GOD did chose our lives as the sinful good seed, HIS sheep gone astray into sin as the best and quickest way to our redemption to fulfill the purpose of our creation, the heavenly marriage, as soon as possible.
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That seems to require a rewriting however
Joshua 24:15 (NASB 2020) — 15 But if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served, which were beyond the Euphrates River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB 2020) — 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Ezekiel 18:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Agreed - Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of [ed: this] their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation. They chose to become vessels fit only for destruction by their free will decision to rebuke HIM as a false god by their own will, not HIS! They corrupted themselves implies not only that they had a free will but that they become corrupt unto destruction by their own will, not HIS creative will at all. Your interpretation turns this verse backwards as you apply it to Romans. Scripture sharpens scripture, theology does not.
After their choice to be HIS eternal enemies fit for destruction, HE then created lives for them as men (Matt 13:36-39) in accordance with their choice to be HIS eternal enemies, lives fitted to express their free will choice which leads them only to inevitable destruction.
I would reframe your phrase as:
They fitted themselves for destruction by their free will rebellion so God created lives for some men as vessels of wrath to live with the sinful people of the kingdom, aka, the sinful good seed, the elect, (Matt 13:27-30), fitting their lives for destruction in the eternal fire
Berean Standard Bible
Matt 25:41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Great verses of truth but they are referring to sinners who have no free will until they are regenerated and reborn. Sinners are given the choice to prove their choice is meaningless without HIS regenerative spirit:
Berean Standard Bible
Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. To believe we are enslaved to sin at the same time we have a free will is deep deep doublethink from unresolved contradiction.
The people with a free will I write about is everyone created in HIS image before they have chosen to rebel against HIM or HIS command before they are sown into this world as sinners already, some condemned already....
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
God doesn't create a special group of "damned" people. We are all "damned" (I prefer fallen or slaves to sin) without Christ. That's our default state.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Was Adam created damned too?
The children of Adam are from a natural birth. God enabled Adam and Eve to have children but only Christ was chosen. Elect. Purposed. Your narrative here fits well into those facts. You should reconsider how you view election. Fully honor Christ.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes Rom 9 shows me that some were created, formed by God into vessels of wrath, and He fits them for destruction by causing them to fit themselves for destruction.
These right here were predetermined to this course Rom 2:8-9
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
They are predestined not to obey the truth, but unrighteousness 1 Pet 2:7-8
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
brightfame52
Well-known member
They corrupt themselves according to Gods fitting them for destruction, He created them for that purpose, but remember they corrupt themselves because God is fitting them for destruction, that was determined before they had being.
Sorry there is nothing in the text which states that
being disobedient they are appointed to stumble
Whereunto also they were appointed (εἰς ὁ και ἐτεθησαν [eis ho kai etethēsan]). First aorist passive indicative of τιθημι [tithēmi]. See this idiom in 1 Tim. 2:7. “Their disobedience is not ordained, the penalty of their disobedience is” (Bigg). They rebelled against God and paid the penalty.1
1 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.
