It man was not free, how could he act deliberately
The Elect
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Man is free to act within the limits of his inclination. As a slave to sin, man's inclination is hostility toward God.
Nothing shows man is incapable of accepting God's offer of reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Clay
Active member
It amazes me that anyone could believe that Jesus died only for the elect and that God loves only the elect when the Bible teaches something entirely different. The Bible says that Jesus died for the entire human race whether they get saved or not.
And He [that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of] the whole world.1 John 2:2
10 With a view to this we toil and strive, [yes and] suffer reproach, because we have [fixed our] hope on the living God, Who is the Savior (Preserver, Maintainer, Deliverer) of all men, especially of those who believe (trust in, rely on, and adhere to Him). 1 Timothy 4:10
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the savior of all men which means the entire human race and then he says "Especially of those that believe," This tells us that Jesus died for both who refuse to be saved as well as those who will be saved.
The ones that aren't saved choose their path. The ones that are saved choose to accept Jesus as their lord and savior.
And He [that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of] the whole world.1 John 2:2
10 With a view to this we toil and strive, [yes and] suffer reproach, because we have [fixed our] hope on the living God, Who is the Savior (Preserver, Maintainer, Deliverer) of all men, especially of those who believe (trust in, rely on, and adhere to Him). 1 Timothy 4:10
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the savior of all men which means the entire human race and then he says "Especially of those that believe," This tells us that Jesus died for both who refuse to be saved as well as those who will be saved.
The ones that aren't saved choose their path. The ones that are saved choose to accept Jesus as their lord and savior.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You can die on that hill if you want to. I trust in God, not my ability to accept something.
Affinity
Member
That is until the gospel is preached to them. Then they have a choice to make. Either to turn toward God or to continue doing their own thing.
So when Paul says in Romans 1:16 that "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation," I take him to mean that the gospel is the only message in the world that can powerfully bring a person to the Cross. That's where I first saw the light.
What Does the Bible Say About Power Of The Gospel?
Bible verses about Power Of The Gospel
Rockson
Well-known member
No offence to you personally but here's why what you're thinking needs thrown in the trash. Are you telling me there couldn't have been many people through the ages which believing in Calvinism that thought, "Look I don't feel any irresistible grace to serve God which Calvinists say I would have! Maybe some day I will. Maybe some day he'll impart this thing in me!' And then they die without having chosen to believe and receive.....so where do they now go??? And an added question. Who is now likewise responsible for this?
GOD taught me that theology... Until HE converted me I was full of hate. I know the Spirit who brought me to Christ and He taught me my theology...
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civic
Well-known member
It amazes Jesus too
Human race is your eisegetic interpretation of the word the world...
The world contains both the reprobate, already condemned already to be burnt, John 3:18 with Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
AND
the sinful people of the kingdom needing redemption, Matt 13:37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. and the weeds, the people of the evil one, are condemned already Jn 3:18 to be burnt for never having had faith in Him.
The world is the place for the redemption of His sinful good seed and the reprobate are condemned already before the world, <shrug>. If the gospel is to be preached to the demonic reprobate then it is only to prove to HIS good seed that they will never / can never repent as unforgivable, that even if they know the truth, they will not (because they cannot) live in the truth because they love their sin more: Rom 1:18-30...
Sorry no you trust in your theology not the word of God
The word of god refutes your theology
Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Joshua 24:15–22 (KJV 1900) — 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe
Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
brightfame52
Well-known member
God decreed that Adam would deliberately sin and then hold him accountable. Adam had no choice but to deliberately sin. God decreed that pharoah would deliberately disobey, he had no choice, and then punish him for disobedience.
You mean he was like a robot following his program and God punished him for doing what God caused him to do
What a terrible picture you make of God.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Seriously it is terrible the way Calvinists picture God to men
brightfame52
Well-known member
Call it what you will, your scoffing aint going to change nothing
Kenny
Member
I call it the terrible inconsistencies of Calvinism. Very few people that have swallowed false doctrine hook line and sinker Change. I've noticed people that leave Calvinism have a much closer relationship with their heavenly father. There are a few that fit that description on this forum. So Change is possible.
I did. Your theology horribly misrepresents God.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You do that
Rockson
Well-known member
So it that poster was indeed scoffing you believe that God ordained that he would do so. No need for you to get upset then with anything he or anyone might say then right? For you to get upset, mad or grieved would be to resist the will of God for you believe all things are ordained? But then maybe God wants you grieved ? But then that leaves you at a dead end so what are you to do?
