Calvin on unlimited atonement

[Kampioen]

Just out of curiosity, now that it has been “proven” (as much as anything can be proven in a C&A discussion) that John Calvin advocated for Unlimited Atonement and not Limited Atonement, does this mean that Reformed Theology, TULIP and the Doctrines of Grace will no longer be referred to as “Calvinism” and those of us that believe TULIP to be biblical will no longer be accused of following the teaching of Calvin?

[Since you have just proven that we do not follow the teaching of John Calvin.]

We can rename it Tulipism?

 

[atpollard]

We can rename it Tulipism?

T&F ... Tulipism and FreeWillism?

(Since most of y'all disagree with Jacob Arminius, too.)

Ironically, the Bible already dealt with it ... "One says 'I am of Paul' and another says 'I am of John' ..." [a paraphrase to fit this context of Romans 9 vs John 3 isms].

 

[TomL]

“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44

That verse refers to the drawing of Old Testament saints.

Under the New Covenant, we have Jesus promise to draw all to himself

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

God's drawing previous to Christ's drawing

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

Would be those Old Testament saints who

John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

Those who had God as their father

John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.

Those desiring the will of God

John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.

Now concerning the drawing of Christ

There is no inability to respond in it.

Nor is there imparted an irresistible faith.

 

[atpollard]

That verse refers to the drawing of Old Testament saints.

Got it … so people were saved one way under the Old Covenant and another way under the New Covenant.

I disagree, but leave you to your belief (that is an error for the Holy Spirit to correct, not me.)

 

[atpollard]

There is no inability to respond in it.

Not “inability”, just a free and fallen will that is unwilling to respond:

• And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [ESV]

• "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." - Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]

• And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]

 

[brightfame52]

That verse refers to the drawing of Old Testament saints.

Under the New Covenant, we have Jesus promise to draw all to himself

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

God's drawing previous to Christ's drawing

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

Would be those Old Testament saints who

John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

Those who had God as their father

John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.

Those desiring the will of God

John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.

Now concerning the drawing of Christ

There is no inability to respond in it.

Nor is there imparted an irresistible faith.

Jn 12:32 the drawing here is salvation applied, it can only apply to saved believers. And Jesus is attributing it all to the success of His death, that's what meant by His lifting up, like lifted up on the Cross, like the brass serpent Jn 3:14-15

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So He was lifted up for all who believe as a result of His being lifted up

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Under the New Covenant, we have Jesus promise to draw all to himself

All the House of Israel Heb 8:6-13

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 ;For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

All mankind isnt covered by the New Covenant in Christs Death

 

[TomL]

@TomL



All the House of Israel Heb 8:6-13

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 ;For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

All mankind isnt covered by the New Covenant in Christs Death

Sorry, Jesus was drawing all people

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Acts 13:46–47 (NASB95) — 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 “For so the Lord has commanded us, ‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’ ”

Died for the world

Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.



Christ was a ransom for all, for God desired the salvation of all people.

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

He was therefore was the propitiation for all the world's sin

1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

a savior for all the world

1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

 

[TomL]

Jn 12:32 the drawing here is salvation applied, it can only apply to saved believers. And Jesus is attributing it all to the success of His death, that's what meant by His lifting up, like lifted up on the Cross, like the brass serpent Jn 3:14-15

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So He was lifted up for all who believe as a result of His being lifted up

Sorry, but even though Christ will draw all men.

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

All men are not saved.

But those who do believe will be saved.

 

[TomL]

Got it … so people were saved one way under the Old Covenant and another way under the New Covenant.

I disagree, but leave you to your belief (that is an error for the Holy Spirit to correct, not me.)

In the post during the time of Christ's earthly life, I have the living Old Testament saints drawn to Christ by the Father.
As per

John 6:44 (NASB95) — 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

And after Christ's crucifixion.

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Coming to Christ resulted in salvation

The John 6:44 drawing is limited, but the John 12:32 drawing is unlimited

But You have posted nothing to justify your claim of error.

 

[TomL]

Not “inability”, just a free and fallen will that is unwilling to respond:

Yes, many but not all are unwilling

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

Ephesians 2:8–9 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

1 Peter 1:8–9 (LEB) — 8 whom, although you have not seen, you love; in whom now you believe, although you do not see him, and you rejoice greatly with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,

Romans 5:1 (LEB) — 1 Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 1:21 (LEB) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

 

[JLB]

@JLB



Believing in Jesus is caused by the power of God Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Also know as His Grace Eph 3:7

7 Whereof I was made a minister/believer, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Yes the power is to us who believe.


The Gospel is that power unto salvation for those who believe.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


No one is saved apart from hearing and believing the Gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Sorry, Jesus was drawing all people

Of the house of Israel. Do you deny the New Covenant recipients is to the house of Israel ? Its scripture. In Jn 12:32 Is Jesus shedding his Blood of the New Covenant Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, but even though Christ will draw all men.

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

All men are not saved.

But those who do believe will be saved.

The drawing is salvation applied, it makes them believers. He said UNTO HIM do you deny that ?

 

[brightfame52]

@JLB

Yes the power is to us who believe.

Yes but the believing is brought about by ,according to the working of the power of God

 

[atpollard]

Ephesians 2:8–9 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,

You even QUOTE the answer and ignore it … thus:

But You have posted nothing to justify your claim of error.

Is best responded to with:

(that is an error for the Holy Spirit to correct, not me.)

What power do I have to open ears to hear or eyes to see?

 

[TomL]

Atpollard

You even QUOTE the answer and ignore it … thus:


Is best responded to with:

What power do I have to open ears to hear or eyes to see?

Let's see. I posted

Yes, many but not all are unwilling

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

No unwillingness appears there.

Ephesians 2:8–9 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

Those above were saved through faith. Salvation, not faith, is the gift.

being spoken of as verse 9 which states

It is not from works, so that no one can boast.

Shows salvation is being spoken of

1 Peter 1:8–9 (LEB) — 8 whom, although you have not seen, you love; in whom now you believe, although you do not see him, and you rejoice greatly with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Clearly faith precedes the salvation of your souls

No unwillingness appears here.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,

Faith in the truth is grounds of their being chosen for salvation.

For God desires to save all

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

If God desires the salvation of all and the grace of God appears to all only the rebellion of man disrupts that.

Romans 2:4–5 (LEB) — 4 Or do you despise the wealth of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Hebrews 10:26–29 (LEB) — 26 For if we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace?

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

Continuing with those of faith who received peace and are declared righteous and saved

Romans 5:1 (LEB) — 1 Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 1:21 (LEB) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

so you will have to state your justification for the quote you made

Atpollard

You even QUOTE the answer and ignore it … thus:

 

[TomL]

The drawing is salvation applied, it makes them believers. He said UNTO HIM do you deny that ?

Nope, all are drawn


Sorry, but even though Christ will draw all men.

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

All men are not saved.

But those who do believe will be saved.

and so your theology is in error once again

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Of the house of Israel. Do you deny the New Covenant recipients is to the house of Israel ? Its scripture. In Jn 12:32 Is Jesus shedding his Blood of the New Covenant Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Um the house of Israel is not mentioned

Nor was the house of Israel all saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope, all are drawn


Sorry, but even though Christ will draw all men.

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

All men are not saved.

But those who do believe will be saved.

and so your theology is in error once again

Again its Salvation, the all [jew/gentile] are successfully drawn UNTO HIM !

Read the verse from the KJV /Greek

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev 12:5
Was the child successfully caught up unto God, or made it possible ?
Jn 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.