The Elect

By ...ummm...everyone? Do you know a commentator of the bible who has ever suggested that a pre-lapsarian definition of our election was possible? I think James Buswell, a Calvinist, suggested this was an option but rejected it because it suggests our pre-earth life.
I would imagine Gill but

All hyper-Calvinists are supralapsarians, though not all supras are hyper-Calvinists. Supralapsarianism is sometimes called "high" Calvinism, and its most extreme adherents tend to reject the notion that God has any degree of sincere goodwill or meaningful compassion toward the non-elect. Historically, a minority of Calvinists have held this view.

Notes on Supralapsarianism & Infralapsarianism

www.romans45.org/articles/sup_infr.htm
 
God made the wicked. He is the first cause of their existence Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Does not say he created them that way. Only shows he is capable of using their evil to further his plans
 
Does not say he created them that way. Only shows he is capable of using their evil to further his plans
It says He made them the wicked. The word for made is a creation word Job 36:3

I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker

And He made, wrought them for Himself, as the Potter does the clay. They are the vessels of wrath He made to fit them for destruction Rom 9:20-22
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 
I would imagine Gill but

All hyper-Calvinists are supralapsarians, though not all supras are hyper-Calvinists. Supralapsarianism is sometimes called "high" Calvinism, and its most extreme adherents tend to reject the notion that God has any degree of sincere goodwill or meaningful compassion toward the non-elect. Historically, a minority of Calvinists have held this view.

Notes on Supralapsarianism & Infralapsarianism

www.romans45.org/articles/sup_infr.htm

I'm supralapsarian, but not because I'm a hyper-Calvinist (or even a Calvinist). It just makes the most sense to me. Any other view seems ridiculous and makes God seem like an idiot. "Here, I'll plant a delicious looking fruit tree and tell Adam and Eve not to touch it, and then let the wily serpent into the garden. What could possibly go wrong? Nah...it'll be fine."
 
@TomL

that God has any degree of sincere goodwill or meaningful compassion toward the non-elect.

God doesnt have any goodwill or mercy towards the non elect goats, not when it comes to Salvation, His design for them is wrath and destruction for their sins. Thats why they arent the elect vessels of mercy.
 
You mean no evidence for you, thats between you and God
The onus was on you to show God determined their desire.

You did not present any.
@TomL



God doesnt have any goodwill or mercy towards the non elect goats, not when it comes to Salvation, His design for them is wrath and destruction for their sins. Thats why they arent the elect vessels of mercy.
That is your assumption not scripture

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (ESV) — 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Isaiah 45:22 (ESV) — 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Romans 5:18 (ESV) — 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 John 2:2 (ESV) — 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 (ESV) — 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) — 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
 
I do not know

The Targum (plural, Targumim) is an Aramaic paraphrase/explanation/interpretation of the Hebrew text of the Jewish Scriptures provided by the rabbis in the course of teaching. These paraphrases or explanations were not meant to carry equal authority with the Word of God, and it was normally forbidden to record them in writing, just to make sure that no one would equate them with the written Word of God. However, this rule was not always obeyed, and a good many were written down. In some circles, certain of the targumim were considered authoritative. Various rabbis whose targumim were recorded had followers who accepted their explanations as authoritative, and, in some cases, they put them on par with the Word of God. It is against this backdrop that Christ conducted His ministry and often clashed with various sects who “let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions” (Mark 7:8).

Jesus gave a specific example of the Jews of His day esteeming the Targum over the Word of God: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)—then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that” (Mark 7:9–13).

The Targum is useful today to help the modern interpreter understand how certain groups or even a large portion of the population understood a certain passage. In some cases where the meaning of a passage is unclear, we may be able to better understand what the passage intends to say if we can understand the logic of the Targum in question.

but I am definitely not a fan of Gill
Gill is wrong in many many things but he was a talented theologian. Much more so than Clarke. Just making the point. The Targum isn't even close to what we find in a late MT collection. Not even similar. The DSS doesn't even contain Proverbs 6. It is not alone. Many many Proverbs are missing from among the scrolls.
 
I would imagine Gill but

All hyper-Calvinists are supralapsarians, though not all supras are hyper-Calvinists. Supralapsarianism is sometimes called "high" Calvinism, and its most extreme adherents tend to reject the notion that God has any degree of sincere goodwill or meaningful compassion toward the non-elect. Historically, a minority of Calvinists have held this view.

Notes on Supralapsarianism & Infralapsarianism

www.romans45.org/articles/sup_infr.htm
There more than most believe. You can see "flashes" of it in most any confessed Calvinist. Limited Atonement is the cornerstone rejecting the loving God.

The idea that God has only loved their "kind" is the epitomy of arrogant self worship.
 
I'm supralapsarian, but not because I'm a hyper-Calvinist (or even a Calvinist). It just makes the most sense to me. Any other view seems ridiculous and makes God seem like an idiot. "Here, I'll plant a delicious looking fruit tree and tell Adam and Eve not to touch it, and then let the wily serpent into the garden. What could possibly go wrong? Nah...it'll be fine."
So you believe God determined to elect some for salvation and some for damnation previous to the fall?


God decree to elect some damn others before decreeing the fall?
 
I'm supralapsarian, but not because I'm a hyper-Calvinist (or even a Calvinist). It just makes the most sense to me. Any other view seems ridiculous and makes God seem like an idiot. "Here, I'll plant a delicious looking fruit tree and tell Adam and Eve not to touch it, and then let the wily serpent into the garden. What could possibly go wrong? Nah...it'll be fine."
Nah, you have a ant burning view of God. We are as ants to him.... Right?

What would you do if you were God?

Guess what . You already know. You are displaying it here. Our imaginations about God show what we really believe about Him.
 
So you believe God determined to elect some for salvation and some for damnation previous to the fall?


God decree to elect some damn others before decreeing the fall?

Supralapsarianism / antelapsarianism (“before the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order: (1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others, (2) God decreed to create those elected and eternally condemned, (3) God decreed to permit the fall, and (4) God decreed to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ. Supralapsarianism focuses on God ordaining the fall, creating certain people for the sole purpose of being condemned, and then providing salvation for only those whom He had elected.

That's the definition. The part which I believe is that God decreed that the fall would take place. The rest is irrelevant to me. Maybe that makes me infralapsarian.

Infralapsarianism (“after the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order: (1) God decreed the creation of mankind, (2) God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall into sin through their own self-determination, (3) God decreed to save some of the fallen, and (4) God decreed to provide Jesus Christ as the Redeemer. Infralapsarianism focuses on God allowing the fall and providing salvation. This is by far the majority Reformed (or Calvinistic) view.

The part of infralapsarianism I disagree with is the word "allowed the fall" as if it was just a possibility. I say God planned it.
 
Supralapsarianism / antelapsarianism (“before the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order: (1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others, (2) God decreed to create those elected and eternally condemned, (3) God decreed to permit the fall, and (4) God decreed to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ. Supralapsarianism focuses on God ordaining the fall, creating certain people for the sole purpose of being condemned, and then providing salvation for only those whom He had elected.

Permit the fall? After already determining to reprobate some? Seems the fall was determined to effect his decree to reprobate some

I completely reject such as inconsistent with the love of God for his creation
 
The onus was on you to show God determined their desire.

You did not present any.

That is your assumption not scripture

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (ESV) — 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Isaiah 45:22 (ESV) — 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Romans 5:18 (ESV) — 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 John 2:2 (ESV) — 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 (ESV) — 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) — 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
I have shown what I need to show, however I cant make you see.You are at Gods Mercy to be able to see any Spiritual Truth
 
Reread my edited version.
You mean "I say God planned it."

So according to your view, God determines to reprobate most of what he would create and therefore determined the fall to effect that reprobation?

I find that a terrible view of God.

contrary to

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (ESV) — 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Isaiah 45:22 (ESV) — 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) — 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
 
I've already answered you multiple times now. God made/crafted Adam and Eve. We are all the offspring of one man and women. Do I really need to give you a biology lesson.
Well then I have shown from scripture that the Lord made, formed the wicked Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
 
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