The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Look it up in a Hebrew/English interlinear Bible. It is translated correctly. Maybe a better translation would be "day of doom" instead of "day of evil" but same diff.
The Elect
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Look it up in a Hebrew/English interlinear Bible. It is translated correctly. Maybe a better translation would be "day of doom" instead of "day of evil" but same diff.
Verse 4. The Lord hath made all things for himself] He has se framed and executed every part of his creation, that it manifests his wisdom, power, goodness, and truth.
Even the wicked for the day of evil.] וגם רשע ליום רעה vegam rasha leyom raah. The whole verse is translated by the Chaldee thus: “All the works of the LORD are for those who obey him; and the wicked is reserved for the evil day.”
Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 3, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 746–747.
4. for himself] Better, The Lord hath wrought everything for its own end; and this includes the appointment of an “evil day” for “the wicked” who deserve it.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Jeremiah, Lamentations & Ezekiel (ed. F. C. Cook and J. M. Fuller; London: John Murray, 1879), 48.
brightfame52
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The point is God made the wicked, this is a rebuttal on what was posted earlier here:
brightfame52
Well-known member
God made the wicked. He is the first cause of their existence
Not if he determined it,
brightfame52
Well-known member
Blasphemy because He did determine it Lk 22:22
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
Acts 4:27-28
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
No
God did not make man evil
Ecclesiastes 7:29 (ESV) — 29 See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.
God used their desire to kill Christ to make atonement he did not cause their desire to kill Christ
brightfame52
Well-known member
God made the wicked. He is the first cause of their existence Prov 16:4
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
brightfame52
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All was determined by God
NO SIR!!
The redemptive possibility of GOD was ordained for any and all who put their faith in HIM (as innocents) by their free will by the eternal promise of redemption in Christ for the salvation of all HIS elect.
Choosing to eat of the tree of the experiential (not just theoretical) knowledge of good and evil caused those who put their faith in HIM to come under HIS purpose of redemption for sinners, not innocents.
You've been instructed in Christian theology by a Mason (ie, modern gnostic), haven't you.
By ...ummm...everyone? Do you know a commentator of the bible who has ever suggested that a pre-lapsarian definition of our election was possible? I think James Buswell, a Calvinist, suggested this was an option but rejected it because it suggests our pre-earth life.
Wrong.... HE made them innocent with a free will ability to put their faith in HIM (becoming HIS elect), or against HIM (becoming HIS eternal enemies, the reprobate). Those elect who sinned and the reprobate made themselves wicked. I reject your Masonic interpretation of the bible.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The Hebrew interlinear you are referencing uses manuscripts no earlier than the 10th century. The extant Greek OT and targum are much older and far more reliable in Proverbs. No one even has a copy of Jerome's origin Vulgate. In fact, contrary to popular belief, Jerome didn't actually completely finish the Vulgate. There is no real evidence for the reading your claiming.
Tell you what. Find it referenced in the Talmud. You want find it because it is not there. If @Johann will take me off ignore, you can confirm I'm right with another student of Judiasm.
You know that I've been studying this for a very long time. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't exacting and reliable fact.
The Hebrew history of Proverbs varies greatly throughout history. After all. Proverbs is a collection of sayings from King Solomon. Proverbs is referenced at times in the NT but there is nothing that establishes that Proverbs 16:4 as referenced by Calvinists.
Find it among the DSS... It is not there
.....
There is so much that is blindly repeated without any thought to the fact that men created these manuscripts you are referencing. Men. Men made choices for you and you accepting them without any scholarly effort of your own to confirm them.
There are only a handful of Hebrew readings that are superior to the Greek OT. At times, even the Aramiac readings are superior to the surviving Hebrew references. Isa 42 is one of the superior extant Hebrew readings among the "handful" I'm referencing.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Slander....
I know them better than you do. All you're doing is repeating what some man decided to translate. You don't know the evidence. I do.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Adam Clarke is wrong. If he were right there is no reason it wouldn't be found in the Targum. I posted the Targum reference earlier. He is appealing to a non existent text.
There is an argument to be made for the "evil day" translation but isn't from the any other Semitic source. It is from the late Hebrew reconstructed manuscripts. Clarke wasn't very well versed in Hebrew compared to others. John Gill is one of the best theologians there is relative to the historical Rabbinical understanding of Hebrew... and a very dedicated Calvinist. Much more so than Surgeons.
He say clearly concerning this verse the following...
It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked;
brightfame52
Well-known member
Oh yes
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes He made the wicked for His wrath
brightfame52
Well-known member
Did the lord make the wicked
I do not know
The Targum (plural, Targumim) is an Aramaic paraphrase/explanation/interpretation of the Hebrew text of the Jewish Scriptures provided by the rabbis in the course of teaching. These paraphrases or explanations were not meant to carry equal authority with the Word of God, and it was normally forbidden to record them in writing, just to make sure that no one would equate them with the written Word of God. However, this rule was not always obeyed, and a good many were written down. In some circles, certain of the targumim were considered authoritative. Various rabbis whose targumim were recorded had followers who accepted their explanations as authoritative, and, in some cases, they put them on par with the Word of God. It is against this backdrop that Christ conducted His ministry and often clashed with various sects who “let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions” (Mark 7:8).
Jesus gave a specific example of the Jews of His day esteeming the Targum over the Word of God: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)—then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that” (Mark 7:9–13).
The Targum is useful today to help the modern interpreter understand how certain groups or even a large portion of the population understood a certain passage. In some cases where the meaning of a passage is unclear, we may be able to better understand what the passage intends to say if we can understand the logic of the Targum in question.
but I am definitely not a fan of Gill
