The Elect

[brightfame52]

What would happen if he did not blind them

If not hardened, they could believe

lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them

According to Jn 12:39

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

Can they believe in Christ ? Yes or No ?

Then what is the reason for that in Vs 40

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[makesends]

If not hardened they could believe

lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them

I'm going to try to get a concept across to you, that you so far have been unable to see. You, and all self-determinists, it seems, consider the state of facts as being subject to our ability to understand and even to control. It is not so, as you will see. God uses MEANS to accomplish his ends. When God spoke all fact into existence, there were, (nor will be), any independent facts, nor independent actors. It is logically self-contradictory to say that there can be such a thing, other than God (First Cause) Himself. And this, the Bible declares with no uncertainty. If you propose a God who admits to facts beyond his control, it is not God you are speaking of.

God operates in a "realm" (for lack of a better word) we do not inhabit. And what happens in this realm is a result of that one. It does not operate independently in any way. What we do is by our willed choice, but that is still known to him before he made us, because it is caused in us by the many means that he has caused to be.

Or are you saying that you know what existence is, how it is, and how it continues, and don't need him to do that?

 

[TomL]

I'm going to try to get a concept across to you, that you so far have been unable to see. You, and all self-determinists, it seems, consider the state of facts as being subject to our ability to understand and even to control. It is not so, as you will see. God uses MEANS to accomplish his ends. When God spoke all fact into existence, there were, (nor will be), any independent facts, nor independent actors. It is logically self-contradictory to say that there can be such a thing, other than God (First Cause) Himself. And this, the Bible declares with no uncertainty. If you propose a God who admits to facts beyond his control, it is not God you are speaking of.

God operates in a "realm" (for lack of a better word) we do not inhabit. And what happens in this realm is a result of that one. It does not operate independently in any way. What we do is by our willed choice, but that is still known to him before he made us, because it is caused in us by the many means that he has caused to be.

Or are you saying that you know what existence is, how it is, and how it continues, and don't need him to do that?

You are not addressing the issue. Your theology is that man is born incapable of believing not that God uses means to harden man so he will not believe

 

[makesends]

You are not addressing the issue. Your theology is that man is born incapable of believing not that God uses means to harden man so he will not believe

Interesting to me, how the self-determinists, even as they (rightly) accuse their opponents of doing, do not see how they speak (consider, debate etc) either specifically or in general terms, as it suits them. You have not heard what I was saying, (or at least what I meant to be saying), I think. Your argument is based on the false notion that it is a perfectly logical use of causes to say that 'God causing' is incompatible with 'human responsibility'. I am [trying] to show it is not so, by describing (no doubt, falteringly) what the 'lens' that you are looking through does not consider.

 

[TomL]

Interesting to me, how the self-determinists, even as they (rightly) accuse their opponents of doing, do not see how they speak (consider, debate etc) either specifically or in general terms, as it suits them. You have not heard what I was saying, (or at least what I meant to be saying), I think. Your argument is based on the false notion that it is a perfectly logical use of causes to say that 'God causing' is incompatible with 'human responsibility'. I am [trying] to show it is not so, by describing (no doubt, falteringly) what the 'lens' that you are looking through does not consider.

That is not what I stated at all

I am saying God had to employ means to prevent something your theology insists he has no power to do

Your theology therefore is in error

 

[makesends]

That is not what I stated at all

I am saying God had to employ means to prevent something your theology insists he has no power to do

Your theology therefore is in error

I know you are saying that. And you are wrong. Let me try this, to describe where I'm coming from with what I say, written to someone elsewhere, with a few changes from the original:


Maybe not many people believe as I do; I've found even Calvinists that believe in some form of uncaused reality to the choices of mankind. To me that is logical absurdity, and is not what Scripture teaches, and to me there is no mystery as to the fact that choice is real, and even with eternal consequences.

While I agree to a point that one must not place a grid or lens (of concept or structure or any other bias) over Scripture, I have to say that to hold to "balance" between the two facts, of God's decree and man's responsibility, is also a structure that is not called for. Both, if true, are true, but what God does and God's point-of-view are far and away the active and powerful of the two. The one is subjugated to the other, and never the other way around. God is not a victim of human will —even when the Christ was put to death— but rather, is accomplishing exactly whatever he planned from the beginning to accomplish. God is the cause of our very existence, and so, of every detail within it.

I don't call myself a compatibilist, though I agree that the two are compatible, because they are generally attributed with a certain reasoning for their conclusions that I don't need. I don't have to reason deeply to understand that the one, human will, is absolutely subject to the decree of God. It is both the simple logic of causation and within a necessary meaning for "existence" that in every way we are sustained by God himself. God is not, like us, a resident of reality. He is the cause of it.

I also must admit to a large amount of consternation at the self-determinism apparent in the complaint of incompatibility. We do not operate within God's economy, where he alone 'resides', but even more available to our good sense is the understanding that he is above both our judgement and our understanding, in the fact that he CAN indeed be just to create and condemn those who by their own will, ordained though it be —even caused though it be— to be as their will is, they have no just complaint; it is his to do with what he created as he wishes to do. We know that he is absolutely just in doing so. No mystery there. Just submission, because God OWNS his creation. —That last, of course, invokes the defeat of many arguments, including, mainly, (to my mind, anyway), the realization that we are not even real in the same sense that God is—that is, particularly, that we are not sentient in the sense that God alone, (and not even the angels), is.

Obviously, there are many other considerations, too, such as the notion of not only temporal reality being but a vapor, according to scripture, but our very selves being only what God sees, and entirely for his purposes and of no other truth than that, and not what we see.

We are completely, totally, regenerated or not, at God's mercy and at his service and dependent on his decree, whether we admit it or not.

 

[makesends]

That is not what I stated at all

I am saying God had to employ means to prevent something your theology insists he has no power to do

Your theology therefore is in error

I am curious what you are referring to, that (you claim) my theology insists God has no power to do.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I also must admit to a large amount of consternation at the self-determinism apparent in the complaint of incompatibility. We do not operate within God's economy, where he alone 'resides', but even more available to our good sense is the understanding that he is above both our judgement and our understanding, in the fact that he CAN indeed be just to create and condemn those who by their own will, ordained though it be —even caused though it be— to be as their will is, they have no just complaint; it is his to do with what he created as he wishes to do. We know that he is absolutely just in doing so. No mystery there. Just submission, because God OWNS his creation. —That last, of course, invokes the defeat of many arguments, including, mainly, (to my mind, anyway), the realization that we are not even real in the same sense that God is—that is, particularly, that we are not sentient in the sense that God alone, (and not even the angels), is.

Obviously, there are many other considerations, too, such as the notion of not only temporal reality being but a vapor, according to scripture, but our very selves being only what God sees, and entirely for his purposes and of no other truth than that, and not what we see.

We are completely, totally, regenerated or not, at God's mercy and at his service and dependent on his decree, whether we admit it or not.

IMO, this is the heart of faith. Knowing God can and does according to His will with His own creation. Knowing that how he works everything according to His will is not something we have a right to understand or object. Trusting God and not leaning on our own understanding. This offends some people. It is a great source of comfort for me.

 

[makesends]

IMO, this is the heart of faith. Knowing God can and does according to His will with His own creation. Knowing that how he works everything according to His will is not something we have a right to understand or object. Trusting God and not leaning on our own understanding. This offends some people. It is a great source of comfort for me.

AMEN that, brother! To be entirely at God's mercy is the safest and grandest way to be.

 

[Rockson]

IMO, this is the heart of faith. Knowing God can and does according to His will with His own creation. Knowing that how he works everything according to His will is not something we have a right to understand or object.

Sorry but I don't buy that you Calvinists really believe this. If you God forbid discovered you weren't one of the elect in the day and you just thought you were I'm thinking you would be the first one to object. Lord consider this, and consider that and this! So you can claim this all you want but if it was about you I contend once again you would object.

Trusting God and not leaning on our own understanding. This offends some people. It is a great source of comfort for me.

Again I think you would be offended and object if you found yourself in the place above.

 

[TomL]

I am curious what you are referring to, that (you claim) my theology insists God has no power to do.

Man not God

Man according to your theology has no ability to believe

Yet scripture shows God had tom take steps to prevent his belief

 

[TomL]

I know you are saying that. And you are wrong. Let me try this, to describe where I'm coming from with what I say, written to someone elsewhere, with a few changes from the original:


Maybe not many people believe as I do; I've found even Calvinists that believe in some form of uncaused reality to the choices of mankind. To me that is logical absurdity, and is not what Scripture teaches, and to me there is no mystery as to the fact that choice is real, and even with eternal consequences.

While I agree to a point that one must not place a grid or lens (of concept or structure or any other bias) over Scripture, I have to say that to hold to "balance" between the two facts, of God's decree and man's responsibility, is also a structure that is not called for. Both, if true, are true, but what God does and God's point-of-view are far and away the active and powerful of the two. The one is subjugated to the other, and never the other way around. God is not a victim of human will —even when the Christ was put to death— but rather, is accomplishing exactly whatever he planned from the beginning to accomplish. God is the cause of our very existence, and so, of every detail within it.

I don't call myself a compatibilist, though I agree that the two are compatible, because they are generally attributed with a certain reasoning for their conclusions that I don't need. I don't have to reason deeply to understand that the one, human will, is absolutely subject to the decree of God. It is both the simple logic of causation and within a necessary meaning for "existence" that in every way we are sustained by God himself. God is not, like us, a resident of reality. He is the cause of it.

I also must admit to a large amount of consternation at the self-determinism apparent in the complaint of incompatibility. We do not operate within God's economy, where he alone 'resides', but even more available to our good sense is the understanding that he is above both our judgement and our understanding, in the fact that he CAN indeed be just to create and condemn those who by their own will, ordained though it be —even caused though it be— to be as their will is, they have no just complaint; it is his to do with what he created as he wishes to do. We know that he is absolutely just in doing so. No mystery there. Just submission, because God OWNS his creation. —That last, of course, invokes the defeat of many arguments, including, mainly, (to my mind, anyway), the realization that we are not even real in the same sense that God is—that is, particularly, that we are not sentient in the sense that God alone, (and not even the angels), is.

Obviously, there are many other considerations, too, such as the notion of not only temporal reality being but a vapor, according to scripture, but our very selves being only what God sees, and entirely for his purposes and of no other truth than that, and not what we see.

We are completely, totally, regenerated or not, at God's mercy and at his service and dependent on his decree, whether we admit it or not.

That does nothing to address the fact God had to take steps to prevent man from believing when your theology states he is born unable to believe

regeneration is life

faith always precedes life

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

 

[praise_yeshua]

IMO, this is the heart of faith. Knowing God can and does according to His will with His own creation. Knowing that how he works everything according to His will is not something we have a right to understand or object. Trusting God and not leaning on our own understanding. This offends some people. It is a great source of comfort for me.

Or a great source of freedom to blame God for your own sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

AMEN that, brother! To be entirely at God's mercy is the safest and grandest way to be.

Interesting how you believe God discriminately applies mercy without explanation.
I wonder why God has spoken at all..... In your false system, God does as He pleases without any consideration of creation.

 

[TomL]

IMO, this is the heart of faith. Knowing God can and does according to His will with His own creation. Knowing that how he works everything according to His will is not something we have a right to understand or object. Trusting God and not leaning on our own understanding. This offends some people. It is a great source of comfort for me.

The heart of faith is knowing and trusting is our loving, just, and holy God. He is good and kind, long suffering, not capricious, not disingenuous, and does not desire his children to be lost so in love he sent his son to die for the world that the world might be saved. Men can rest assured in God's love.

 

[civic]

Again the Elect will be regenerated unto obedience

Then the disciples must of been dead in sin as the elect sheep. And they didn't obey either as "elect" sheep.

We know that the disciples did not understand the gospel as it was hidden from them until after Pentecost. Jesus even said that He hid it from them.

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 18:34
But the disciples did not understand any of these things. The meaning was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend what He was saying

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past

1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began.

Ephesians 3:1-5
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.


Gospel Summary

1- Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
2- Jesus was buried , in a guarded tomb
3- Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected on the 3rd day bodily
4- Jesus was seen by many witnesses over 40 days before His Ascension

Jesus died for the sin of the world as the Lamb of God who taketh them away ( John 1:29 ) and Rose from the dead as the only sign He would give an unbelieving people who rejected Him proving He was the promised Messiah who had the power over sin, death/grave and the devil having been raised from the dead conquering them all. The gospel is a historical fact verified by many witnesses. The biblical principle of letting every fact be confirmed by the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses. This gospel is for all the world, for all sinners to come freely and receive the forgiveness of their sins by the atonement He made for ALL the WORLD as per 1 John 2:2.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 20:30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The new birth being born again comes through the message of the gospel. It doesn't come before but after faith.

1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ !

Romans 10
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Then the disciples must of been dead in sin as the elect sheep. And they didn't obey either as "elect" sheep.

We know that the disciples did not understand the gospel as it was hidden from them until after Pentecost. Jesus even said that He hid it from them.

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 18:34
But the disciples did not understand any of these things. The meaning was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend what He was saying

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past

1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began.

Ephesians 3:1-5
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.


Gospel Summary

1- Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
2- Jesus was buried , in a guarded tomb
3- Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected on the 3rd day bodily
4- Jesus was seen by many witnesses over 40 days before His Ascension

Jesus died for the sin of the world as the Lamb of God who taketh them away ( John 1:29 ) and Rose from the dead as the only sign He would give an unbelieving people who rejected Him proving He was the promised Messiah who had the power over sin, death/grave and the devil having been raised from the dead conquering them all. The gospel is a historical fact verified by many witnesses. The biblical principle of letting every fact be confirmed by the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses. This gospel is for all the world, for all sinners to come freely and receive the forgiveness of their sins by the atonement He made for ALL the WORLD as per 1 John 2:2.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 20:30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The new birth being born again comes through the message of the gospel. It doesn't come before but after faith.

1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ !

Romans 10
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

hope this helps !!!

I have no idea what you talking about but:

Again the Elect will be regenerated unto obedience

 

[civic]

I have no idea what you talking about but:

Again the Elect will be regenerated unto obedience

Well they (the 12 )were unregenerate elect sheep. So much for the elect knowing and understanding truth. And we know they all denied Him and fled in fear when Jesus was arrested and tortured,flogged. Your understanding of elect is unbiblical.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sorry but I don't buy that you Calvinists really believe this. If you God forbid discovered you weren't one of the elect in the day and you just thought you were I'm thinking you would be the first one to object. Lord consider this, and consider that and this! So you can claim this all you want but if it was about you I contend once again you would object.

Again I think you would be offended and object if you found yourself in the place above.

If I wasn't among the elect, I wouldn't have any faith in God or even be aware that there are those who are elect and saved and those who cling to the pride of their own free will.

 

[TomL]

Again the Elect will be regenerated unto obedience

Faith precedes regeneration (life)

Titus 3:5–7 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justification requires faith

the order is faith - justification - regeneration and life


Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

faith - forgiveness (justification) life (quickening -regeneration)