The Elect

[makesends]

This doesn't establish your scenario where God discriminately applies mercy to mankind without explanation. When someone says God does something and then refuses to explain why... You can "Mark it down". It is nothing more then self serving malarkey.

What makes you think God doesn't explain it? He tells us more than enough, why he does what he does.

 

[makesends]

2 Timothy 2:20–21 (ESV) — 20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

Problem?

 

[makesends]

Correct but promises He will.

True that.

 

[TomL]

Problem?

Not for me, but your theology may be another issue

 

[makesends]

or that God meticulously predetermined they must do yet God is not to blame for their sin. It's having your cake and eating it too. It cannot work both ways it's a contradiction , an oxymoron. It's like the WCF that tries getting God off the hook for everything that comes to pass, He designed and determined would happen with the exception of sin/evil. That's the problem they have when they reject free will which is the answer to their dilemma.

Where does the WCF claim that sin/evil is the exception?

But this is like arguing that sin is a principle in its own right, and not the privation of Good. He doesn't have to 'create it' as such, to decree that there be sin.

 

[civic]

Where does the WCF claim that sin/evil is the exception?

But this is like arguing that sin is a principle in its own right, and not the privation of Good. He doesn't have to 'create it' as such, to decree that there be sin.

Notice the "exception " with ordaining / causing everything.

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death

 

[TomL]

Notice the "exception " with ordaining / causing everything.

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death

Seems self-serving and inconsistent

How is he not the author of sin when he decreed and determined it according to the theology.

 

[praise_yeshua]

or that God meticulously predetermined they must do yet God is not to blame for their sin. It's having your cake and eating it too. It cannot work both ways it's a contradiction , an oxymoron. It's like the WCF that tries getting God off the hook for everything that comes to pass, He designed and determined would happen with the exception of sin/evil. That's the problem they have when they reject free will which is the answer to their dilemma.

They believe God preordained evil. That is their evil nature finding it's way into their theology.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What makes you think God doesn't explain it? He tells us more than enough, why he does what he does.

You're the one that made the argument. Either it is or it isn't. Pick one and stick with it. Stop this nonsense of changing your argument whenever you're proven wrong.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where does the WCF claim that sin/evil is the exception?

But this is like arguing that sin is a principle in its own right, and not the privation of Good. He doesn't have to 'create it' as such, to decree that there be sin.

The "well being" of Good requires evil?

Yep. You keep proving that you believe God requires you (opposed to God) to make Him happy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Notice the "exception " with ordaining / causing everything.

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death

Yep. The WCF is pure hubris.

 

[makesends]

Notice the "exception " with ordaining / causing everything.

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death

"Yet so" is not exception to the rule that he ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but qualification/definition of the principle that he does so. The writers were attempting to show that his ordaining that all things come to pass causes (establishes) the will of the creatures and liberty and contingency of second causes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Yet so" is not exception to the rule that he ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but qualification/definition of the principle that he does so. The writers were attempting to show that his ordaining that all things come to pass causes (establishes) the will of the creatures and liberty and contingency of second causes.

Preordination doesn't allow for secondary cause. Who are you trying to sell that nonsense to?

 

[makesends]

You're the one that made the argument. Either it is or it isn't. Pick one and stick with it. Stop this nonsense of changing your argument whenever you're proven wrong.

I've changed nothing. God is not obligated to tell us anything. But he does explain enough that your complaint is bogus.

To borrow your method —stop this ad hominem nonsense.

 

[Rockson]

Free-willism gives partial credit for salvation to man. Free-willism believes man's decision is the hinge and turning point of his own salvation. Therefore man must have some of the Glory.

I'd say when Calvinism actually denies man has free will they're actually taking away from the glory of God. For God to receive glory that means a positive appreciation about his character comes his way. That really and truly doesn't come from what you believe. How could it really?

 

[civic]

"Yet so" is not exception to the rule that he ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but qualification/definition of the principle that he does so. The writers were attempting to show that his ordaining that all things come to pass causes (establishes) the will of the creatures and liberty and contingency of second causes.

Remember it was you who previously stuck with the first cause argument, not me . By definition the one who causes it also the one who is liable, responsible in any court of law. To say otherwise is untenable.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I've changed nothing. God is not obligated to tell us anything.

You said nothing of obligation. You presented an argument that required such as evidence and then changed your argument.

But he does explain enough that your complaint is bogus.

Then your first claim means nothing. Your new claim voids the first.

To borrow your method —stop this ad hominem nonsense.

It is not a "ad hominem". You're not constructing an argument. You're just "winging it".

 

[makesends]

The "well being" of Good requires evil?

Yep. You keep proving that you believe God requires you (opposed to God) to make Him happy.

Yes, the "well being" of Heaven, to use your equivalence of expression, does require the evil of this life. Adam sinned, just as God had planned.

Constantly amazes me how people think that our life happens to God and he must fly by the seat of his pants to bring his not very particular plans to fruition, constantly in a state of correcting a creation gone wrong.

 

[makesends]

Yep. The WCF is pure hubris.

How do you get that? BTW, you probably should back off of the scorn, and just debate.

 

[makesends]

Yep. The WCF is pure hubris.

Are you changing the goalposts here? What does this statement have to do with what we were talking about?