The Definition of Grace

[Seabass]

Precious friend, then what would this be called,...?:

"...The Father...He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good,​

and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Mat 5:45)​

​

...if not Unconditional Grace?

Amen.

Life, air to breath, sunshine and rain are given to man by grace, unconditional gifts given to man by God.

But God's grace is conditional in receiving grace's benefits and enjoyment in how its used by man. Man has been graciously, unconditionally given seeds, soil, water and sunshine. Yet if I desire a vegetable garden then I must take what God has graciously given and till the soil, plant and water the seed till the seed germinates and comes up thru the soil to receive sunshine and grow and I must tend to and weed the garden. But if I rely on "grace only" and do nothing, then I would never have a garden and mss out on the benefits and enjoyment God's grace could have provided me by my use of it.

This is why there is no conflict between God's grace and man's obedience to God's will. For when it comes to salvation, God's grace has always been conditional....conditional upon man having an obedient faith in order to receive God's grace. Hence, as man must till, plant, tend to and water the seed to receive the benefit and enjoyment of God's grace, likewise man must obey God's will to receive the benefits and enjoyment of salvation God's grace provides. If I do nothing and rely on "grace alone", then I would never receive the benefits and enjoyment God's grace provides.

Therefore obdience is not the same as works of merit or works of the law.

 

[brightfame52]

What has never been shown is reception of God's grace is totally unconditional, that grace can be received unconditionaly apart from faith.

Takes not away from the fact that you havent shown one verse that says what you stated.

 

[Seabass]

Takes not away from the fact that you havent shown one verse that says what you stated.

You make the claim salvation is unconditional yet not shown anything to prove such.

The Bible makes clear salvation/grace is conditional upon faith (Eph 2:8-9; Rom 5:1-2) for the faithless will not receive grace.

 

[brightfame52]

You make the claim salvation is unconditional yet not shown anything to prove such.

The Bible makes clear salvation/grace is conditional upon faith (Eph 2:8-9; Rom 5:1-2) for the faithless will not receive grace.

Not one verse says salvation/grace is conditioned on faith.

Now a person is reconciled to God while they are a unbelieving enemy, so reconciliation is of grace, by Christs death and not by faith. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies/unbelievers, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now a person who is reconciled to God is legally saved, and God doesnt charge them with their sins 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Seabass]

Not one verse says salvation/grace is conditioned on faith.

Now a person is reconciled to God while they are a unbelieving enemy, so reconciliation is of grace, by Christs death and not by faith. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies/unbelievers, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now a person who is reconciled to God is legally saved, and God doesnt charge them with their sins 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 5:2 faith is what gives access to grace...meaning no faith = no access to grace.

Reconcilliation came to man thru the death of Christ, hence the death of Christ opened a way for man to be reconciled to God. Though Christ died for all men (Heb 2:9) all men will not be saved by the death of Christ. Only those who faithfully obey Christ receive the benefits of His death (Heb 5:9). So it's up to man to either accept or reject the benefit of reconcilliation that came by means of Christ's death by either obeying or disobeying Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:2 faith is what gives access to grace...meaning no faith = no access to grace.

Reconcilliation came to man thru the death of Christ, hence the death of Christ opened a way for man to be reconciled to God. Though Christ died for all men (Heb 2:9) all men will not be saved by the death of Christ. Only those who faithfully obey Christ receive the benefits of His death (Heb 5:9). So it's up to man to either accept or reject the benefit of reconcilliation that came by means of Christ's death by either obeying or disobeying Christ.

They were reconciled to God prior to access by Faith. Thats my point, they were legally saved before they were given faith. So faith isnt a condition to get saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:2 faith is what gives access to grace...meaning no faith = no access to grace.

Reconcilliation came to man thru the death of Christ, hence the death of Christ opened a way for man to be reconciled to God. Though Christ died for all men (Heb 2:9) all men will not be saved by the death of Christ. Only those who faithfully obey Christ receive the benefits of His death (Heb 5:9). So it's up to man to either accept or reject the benefit of reconcilliation that came by means of Christ's death by either obeying or disobeying Christ.

Faith was given to access the Grace they were already in by the death of Christ while they were unbelievers. The Grace of reconciliation was unconditionally applied.

 

[Grace ambassador]

What has never been shown is reception of God's grace is totally unconditional, that grace can be received unconditionaly apart from faith.

Life, air to breath, sunshine and rain are given to man by grace, unconditional gifts given to man by God.

Totally Awesome when one agrees with God! But...:

obdience is not the same as works of merit

...But, not so much when textual criticism Confuses:

1) God's Relationship With the just That He Establishes, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the New Spiritual birth From God Above, By "[ God's Unconditional ] Grace
Through [ our conditional ] faith" (↓ Eph 2:8-9 ↓ ), Alone!

and:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

2) our fellowship with Him (1Co 1:9-10), Because "of the Very Next Verse", ↑ Which ↑
Clearly States:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,​

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)​

Thus, obedience [ fellowship ] After receiving God's FREE Gift Of Eternal Life, and being
born/adopted as a child [ relationship ], is now "works of merit" in preparation for:

The Judgment Seat Of Christ, Which Clearly Teaches:​

"...Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall​

receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers​

together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.​

​

According to The Grace Of God Which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder,​

I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon. But let every man take ​

heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than​

That is laid, Which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon This Foundation​

gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;​

[ ↑ obedience ↑ .......................... ↑ Dis-obedience ↑ ]​

​

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day shall declare it, because it​

shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.​

​

[ the obedient child Of God ]​

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.​

​

[ the DISobedient child Of God ]:​

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself Shall Be Saved;​

yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)​

Conclusion: our fellowship [ obedience ] has Nothing to do with God Granting
[ UNmerited ] Eternal Life, but, has Everything to do with "receiving [ merited ] rewards!"

Amen.

 

[Seabass]

Faith was given to access the Grace they were already in by the death of Christod has made it possible for all men to be saved.

Salvation is impossible apart from faith. One believes unto righteousness (Rom 10:9-10) and not believes because one is already righteous. Faith is unto salvation (1 Pet 1:5) not faith because one is already saved. Unbeliervers are lost and remain so unless, until they believe (Jn 3:15-18).

God has reconciled the world unto Himself (2 Cor 5:19) in the same sense Christ is said to be Saviour of the world (1 Jn 4:14). Neither verse means all men aill universally, unconditionally will be saved, (most will be lost - Mt 7:13) but that God has made reconcilliation and salvation available to all men, it's possible for all men to attain it. Reconcilliation is only found 'in Christ' for only those "in Christ" are a new creature" (2 Cor 5:17) and in verse 19 it is "in Christ" that God reconciled the world to Himself. There is no reconcilliation or salvation apart from Christ and it takes faith obedience to be in Christ.

 

[Seabass]

Totally Awesome when one agrees with God! But...:


...But, not so much when textual criticism Confuses:

1) God's Relationship With the just That He Establishes, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the New Spiritual birth From God Above, By "[ God's Unconditional ] Grace
Through [ our conditional ] faith" (↓ Eph 2:8-9 ↓ ), Alone!

and:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

2) our fellowship with Him (1Co 1:9-10), Because "of the Very Next Verse", ↑ Which ↑
Clearly States:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,​

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)​

Thus, obedience [ fellowship ] After receiving God's FREE Gift Of Eternal Life, and being
born/adopted as a child [ relationship ], is now "works of merit" in preparation for:

The Judgment Seat Of Christ, Which Clearly Teaches:​

"...Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall​

receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers​

together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.​

​

According to The Grace Of God Which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder,​

I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon. But let every man take ​

heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than​

That is laid, Which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon This Foundation​

gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;​

[ ↑ obedience ↑ .......................... ↑ Dis-obedience ↑ ]​

​

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day shall declare it, because it​

shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.​

​

[ the obedient child Of God ]​

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.​

​

[ the DISobedient child Of God ]:​

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself Shall Be Saved;​

yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)​

Conclusion: our fellowship [ obedience ] has Nothing to do with God Granting
[ UNmerited ] Eternal Life, but, has Everything to do with "receiving [ merited ] rewards!"

Amen.

There is not a single verse that teaches the disobedient are granted eternal life. Again, Paul wrote "obedience UNTO righteousness" Rom 6:16 for there is no such things as disobedience unto righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is impossible apart from faith. One believes unto righteousness (Rom 10:9-10) and not believes because one is already righteous. Faith is unto salvation (1 Pet 1:5) not faith because one is already saved. Unbeliervers are lost and remain so unless, until they believe (Jn 3:15-18).

God has reconciled the world unto Himself (2 Cor 5:19) in the same sense Christ is said to be Saviour of the world (1 Jn 4:14). Neither verse means all men aill universally, unconditionally will be saved, (most will be lost - Mt 7:13) but that God has made reconcilliation and salvation available to all men, it's possible for all men to attain it. Reconcilliation is only found 'in Christ' for only those "in Christ" are a new creature" (2 Cor 5:17) and in verse 19 it is "in Christ" that God reconciled the world to Himself. There is no reconcilliation or salvation apart from Christ and it takes faith obedience to be in Christ.

Again they had been reconciled to God by His Death, while they were enemies/unbelievers, they were in a state of grace/favor while enemies. The word reconciled means in Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

reconciled katallassō:

1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
3. to receive one into favour

See thats Gods Grace, it was unconditional, they had no faith, they were being enemies in their mind

 

[Seabass]

Again they had been reconciled to God by His Death, while they were enemies/unbelievers, they were in a state of grace/favor while enemies. The word reconciled means in Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

reconciled katallassō:

1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
3. to receive one into favour

See thats Gods Grace, it was unconditional, they had no faith, they were being enemies in their mind

No verse speaks of reconcilliation or salvation as being unconditional. Again, it means God made reconcilliation available to all men, not that God UNIVERSALLY saved all men UNconditionally in their sins.

Reconcilliation cannot take place until one is forgiven of sins and one's sins are not forgiven until one conditionally obeys inrepenting and being baptized, Acts 2:38 Therefore reconcilliation is not possible prior to baptism and forgiveness of sins. If men can be reconcilled to God and saved while still in their unforgiven, unremitted sins then no need for Christ to die and shed His blood that washes away sins. Christ died in vain, died for no reason.

 

[brightfame52]

No verse speaks of reconcilliation or salvation as being unconditional. Again, it means God made reconcilliation available to all men, not that God UNIVERSALLY saved all men UNconditionally in their sins.

Reconcilliation cannot take place until one is forgiven of sins and one's sins are not forgiven until one conditionally obeys inrepenting and being baptized, Acts 2:38 Therefore reconcilliation is not possible prior to baptism and forgiveness of sins. If men can be reconcilled to God and saved while still in their unforgiven, unremitted sins then no need for Christ to die and shed His blood that washes away sins. Christ died in vain, died for no reason.

What was their being reconciled to God conditioned on according to Rom 5:10 ?

 

[Seabass]

What was their being reconciled to God conditioned on according to Rom 5:10 ?

The idea of Rom 5:10 is that God made reconcilliation AVAILABLE to all men not that God actually reconciled all men to Himself unconditionally.

Reconciliation is conditional upon forgiveness and forgiveness is conditional upon an obedient faith in repenting and being baptized.

2 Cor 5:20 Paul commanded men to be reconciled to God..be reconciled to God and do so now is Paul's command. Why command all men to be reconciled to God if they already have been so unconditionally? The imperative implies man has a role in his being reconciled to God and that is by conditionally obeying God. Being reconciled to God is not something done unconditionally, unilaterly, solely by God apart from man's choice to be reconciled to God.

 

[brightfame52]

The idea of Rom 5:10 is that God made reconcilliation AVAILABLE to all men not that God actually reconciled all men to Himself unconditionally.

Reconciliation is conditional upon forgiveness and forgiveness is conditional upon an obedient faith in repenting and being baptized.

2 Cor 5:20 Paul commanded men to be reconciled to God..be reconciled to God and do so now is Paul's command. Why command all men to be reconciled to God if they already have been so unconditionally? The imperative implies man has a role in his being reconciled to God and that is by conditionally obeying God. Being reconciled to God is not something done unconditionally, unilaterly, solely by God apart from man's choice to be reconciled to God.

Where do you see reconciliation is available in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Seabass]

Where do you see reconciliation is available in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Again, Christ is said to be the Saviour of the world but this does not mean all the world will be unconditionally universally saved, many will be lost (Mt 7:13). Therefore when 2 Cor 5:19 says God reconciled the world to Himself that does not teach the all the wolrd will be unconditionally, universally reconciled to God for many will be lost. The Bible does not teach Universalism.

Hence Rom 5:10 shows that God has made reconcilliation available or possible for men, not that God unconditionally universally reconciled all men for the Bible does not teach Universalism. Also if God reconciled men while men were still enemies then you create more impossiblities, 1) you have men reconciled to God while men are still unforgiven and there can be no reconcilliation between God and the enemy of God that being unforgiven man and 2) you have reconcilliation taking place while man is still faithless and in unbelief therefore lost (Jn 3:18) when there can be no reconcilliation between God and unforgiven, lost, faithless, reprobate, enemy of God man. Forgiveness of man must take place before reconcilliation can take place between God and man and the Bible shows forgiveness takes place when man first obeys by having an obedient faith that leads man to repent and being baptized then his sins are forgiven-remitted then reconcilliation takes place. Even reconcilliation between brothers can be had only if forgiveness can first be had (Matt 5:23-24) and there is no reconcilliation between God and His enemies without those enemies first being changed and forgiven.

Reconcilliation takes place by the death of Christ and Christ died for all men (Heb 2:9) yet all men will not be saved hence all men have not been reconciled to God for all men have not obeyed Christ (Heb 5:9) in repenting and being baptized for forgiveness of sins thereby all men have not taken advantage of the reconcilliation God made possible/available to man by Christ's death.
Hence in 2 Cor 5:20 Paul, as the other Apostles, were ambassadors for Christ to deliver a message to lost, faithfless, unforgiven men to be reconciled to God immediately. This is why men are commanded to 'be ye reconciled to God'. This command implies all men have not been universally unconditionally reconciled to God by Christ's death, that man has a role in his reconciliation to God, it implies God, thru Christ's death, has removed all the obstacles that stand between God and man whereby man can be reconciled to God. So it then is up to man to meet the conditions of receiving grace, the forgivenss of sins by repenting and being baptized whereby he can then be changed from enemy to friend and be reconciled to God.

You read many ideas into Rom 5:10 that are not there creating many contradictions among Bible verses.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, Christ is said to be the Saviour of the world but this does not mean all the world will be unconditionally universally saved, many will be lost (Mt 7:13). Therefore when 2 Cor 5:19 says God reconciled the world to Himself that does not teach the all the wolrd will be unconditionally, universally reconciled to God for many will be lost. The Bible does not teach Universalism.

Hence Rom 5:10 shows that God has made reconcilliation available or possible for men, not that God unconditionally universally reconciled all men for the Bible does not teach Universalism. Also if God reconciled men while men were still enemies then you create more impossiblities, 1) you have men reconciled to God while men are still unforgiven and there can be no reconcilliation between God and the enemy of God that being unforgiven man and 2) you have reconcilliation taking place while man is still faithless and in unbelief therefore lost (Jn 3:18) when there can be no reconcilliation between God and unforgiven, lost, faithless, reprobate, enemy of God man. Forgiveness of man must take place before reconcilliation can take place between God and man and the Bible shows forgiveness takes place when man first obeys by having an obedient faith that leads man to repent and being baptized then his sins are forgiven-remitted then reconcilliation takes place. Even reconcilliation between brothers can be had only if forgiveness can first be had (Matt 5:23-24) and there is no reconcilliation between God and His enemies without those enemies first being changed and forgiven.

Reconcilliation takes place by the death of Christ and Christ died for all men (Heb 2:9) yet all men will not be saved hence all men have not been reconciled to God for all men have not obeyed Christ (Heb 5:9) in repenting and being baptized for forgiveness of sins thereby all men have not taken advantage of the reconcilliation God made possible/available to man by Christ's death.
Hence in 2 Cor 5:20 Paul, as the other Apostles, were ambassadors for Christ to deliver a message to lost, faithfless, unforgiven men to be reconciled to God immediately. This is why men are commanded to 'be ye reconciled to God'. This command implies all men have not been universally unconditionally reconciled to God by Christ's death, that man has a role in his reconciliation to God, it implies God, thru Christ's death, has removed all the obstacles that stand between God and man whereby man can be reconciled to God. So it then is up to man to meet the conditions of receiving grace, the forgivenss of sins by repenting and being baptized whereby he can then be changed from enemy to friend and be reconciled to God.

You read many ideas into Rom 5:10 that are not there creating many contradictions among Bible verses.

The world Christ died for has been reconciled to God by His death and the non imputation of their sins, nothing about being made available. What does God say about the world that is reconciled 2 Cor 5:19


19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[civic]

You make the claim salvation is unconditional yet not shown anything to prove such.

The Bible makes clear salvation/grace is conditional upon faith (Eph 2:8-9; Rom 5:1-2) for the faithless will not receive grace.

Yes faith is a factor and that faith is mans responsibility.

 

[Seabass]

The world Christ died for has been reconciled to God by His death and the non imputation of their sins, nothing about being made available. What does God say about the world that is reconciled 2 Cor 5:19


19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So you are pushing the false idea of Universalism, salvation of all men while all men were unforgiven and in unbelief thereby rendering the death of Christ vain.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes faith is a factor and that faith is mans responsibility.

Thats works and law, saved by mans responsibility lol