Good! I have not been back there. Said goodbye before telling moderator she was a joke after she threatened to ban me again for pointing out the things she was not able to answer.
Romans 4:5 disputes the Calvinist Ordu Salutis
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Good job
brightfame52
Well-known member
Salvation is Spiritual not carnal
brightfame52
Well-known member
One must be of God to hear and understand the word of God
Frank Russell
Well-known member
I never drank the kool aid, so the above doesn't make sense to me either.
You are assuming being of God is to be unconditionally chosen
It's nowhere stated
Again the context concerns hearing Christ because he speaks the same as God the Father. You are ignoring the fact that these were Jews who had the word of God but were shown by Christ to not be of God because they did not believe God or have his love in them
Does not address the many verses
https://berean-apologetics.communit...es-the-calvinist-ordu-salutis.1319/post-55023
Mantras are not a substitute for scripture
brightfame52
Well-known member
To be of God is to be born of God like Jn 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im sorry if you feel that way, Salvation is a Spiritual matter
I am sorry you will not heed scripture
https://berean-apologetics.communit...es-the-calvinist-ordu-salutis.1319/post-55023
You missed the point one must first receive Christ before one receives the right to be a child of God
Regeneration is what makes one a child of God
"But under the divine government of the universe, there were two things that stood in God's way of making human beings His children, the fact that they were not His children by birth and the fact that they were law-breakers. The first could easily have been remedied by regeneration, but the thing that stood in the way of this act of mercy on God's part was the fact that human beings are sinners, and God's justice demands that sin be paid for before mercy can be righteously bestowed. This is clearly recognized in John 1: 12 where the Greek work translated "power" was a technical expression used in the law courts for a legal right to be or do something. The word "sons" is not from our word huios here but from teknon, and should be translated "children." To those who received the Lord Jesus as their Saviour, as the One who died in their stead on the Cross, thus satisfying the justice of God in view of man's sin, God gave the legal right to become His children."
Regeneration is therefore dependent upon justification, since an act of mercy in a law court can only be justly based upon the fact of the law being satisfied in the punishment of the crime committed. In human law courts this is impossible, for the prisoner cannot be punished and be set free at the same time" (pg. 92)
Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, for the English Reader
Regeneration makes one a child of God John 1:12, 13
(5) The “children of God.”—Those who are “begotten of God” are ipso facto “children of God” (tékna theoú, Jn 1:12; 11:52; 1 Jn 3:1, 2, 10; 5:2).1
1 R. Law, “Johannine, Theology, The,” ed. James Orr et al., The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company, 1915), 1703.
CHILDREN OF GOD. Persons in this category are only those who of the fallen race are regenerated as a result of faith in Christ1
1 Merrill F. Unger, “Children of God,” ed. R.K. Harrison, The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988).
Children of God (tekna theou). In the full spiritual sense, not as mere offspring of God true of all men (Acts 17:28). Paul's phrase huioi theou (Galatians 3:26) for believers, used also by Jesus of the pure in heart (Matthew 5:9), does not occur in John's Gospel (but in Rev. 21:7). It is possible that John prefers ta tekna tou theou for the spiritual children of God whether Jew or Gentile (John 11:52) because of the community of nature (teknon from root tek-, to beget). But one cannot follow Westcott in insisting on "adoption" as Paul's reason for the use of huioi since Jesus uses huioi theou in Matthew 5:9. Clearly the idea of regeneration is involved here as in John 3:3.
Word Pictures in the New Testament.
Vincent agrees
Sons (τέκνα)
Rev., more correctly, children. Son is υἱός. Τέκνον, child (τίκτω, to bring forth), denotes a relation based on community of nature
Word Studies in the New Testament.
τέκνα θ. γενέσθαι] The spiritual life owes its beginning to a birth from above, ch. 3:3–7. And this birth is owing to the Holy Spirit of God; so that this is equivalent to saying, ‘As many as received Him, to them gave He His Holy Spirit.’ And we find that it was so: see Acts 10:44.
Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 684.
When one receives Christ God does what only God can do - He imparts his Spirit and makes one alive
brightfame52
Well-known member
Scripture is quite clear that all that pertains to Salvation is a spiritual matter, and man by nature has no spiritual life and perception. The natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God, because they must be Spiritually discerned, that goes for the Gospel a Spiritual message/revelation. 1 Cor 2:13-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This is simply showing the carnal man, the man who judges solely by earthly wisdom cannot receive revelation knowledge from the spirit regarding things which are hid in the mind of God. It does not say man cannot understand the revealed gospel
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe
Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
That is the problem with Calvinism. It takes a verse here and a verse there and divorces it from the overall biblical context, disregarding the fact that its conclusions are contrary to many verses of scripture.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Nothing changes, man naturally has no spiritual life and discernment, hes only natural
rejection of scripture is also and not a good one
https://berean-apologetics.communit...es-the-calvinist-ordu-salutis.1319/post-55023
extolling your theology is not a substitute for believing scripture
You are simply repeating yourself
ignoring exegesis and rebuttal
Rockson
Well-known member
So when Calvinists say regeneration takes place before believing they have stepped out of line with one of the most basic Bible truths
Yep
Colossians 2:13 (ESV) — 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
also
All heavenly blessings are in Christ
Ephesians 1:3 (ESV) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Calvinism's christology is deficient as it imparts life apart from union with Christ
John 6:53 (ESV) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Rockson
Well-known member
There's a phrase used sometimes someone has gone off half cocked, which was an analogy referring to people using old firearms and not having it properly loaded or set correctly. It also referred to being half drunk or tipsy. Calvinistic theology is a very tipsy thing and it has taken verses from passages going off as we can say half cocked yes taking a truth like the natural man understands not the things of the spirit but they have not shown patience or restraint in getting the full picture of what was being said in the overall passage. The 1 Cor 2:10 verse has to do with the deep things of God the things that take spiritual maturity to perceive which comes with growth. Salvation truths ARE NOT deep things of God and Paul calls them MILK and not MEAT.
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 1 Cor 3:1
So clearly he could not speak unto them of deep spiritual truths for they were walking too much like natural men. But to them he said back to the milk that is the basic salvation truths for that is what you and all men can at least understand.
So again what you have with Calvinists is their cherry picking one small verse from 1 Cor 2 (natural man understands not the things of the Spirit) and going off with it as we could say half cocked and thinking they've got the smoking gun against the more reasonable ;understanding of scripture and that is natural men can understand the gospel and it's meaning enough to act upon it.
