James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[mailmandan]

Amen @mailmandan …

It’s clear to me that the Bible teaches that faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and subsequent good works go hand in hand. Why? …because they are interconnected and dependent on each other. Works, whether in planting seeds, teaching the Word of God, singing, giving, feeding those in need, etc., all demonstrate the faith in Christ that one has. It is something we do through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, faith without works is dead. Let’s read it again.

James 2:20-26 (NKJV) 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent [them] out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

s e l a h

Yes, key word is demonstrate. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that genuine saving faith in Christ is demonstrated or evidenced by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation.

In regard to "faith without works is dead," (James 2:20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Titus]

Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not to be confused with a bare profession of faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. These are two separate "alone's" in connection with two different things.

You teach there are two separate alones.
James never teaches what you teach.
He only teaches one kind of faith that is alone.
Teaching two kinds of alone's is teaching a man made doctrine not found in any new testament book.
James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified(Dan teaches man is justified before obedient works thereby contradicting James) and not by faith alone(Dan teaches there are two alones, nowhere in James epistle do you learn this, therefore it is Dan's presuppositional doctrine)

Stop adding to the text and only allow James to speak for himself!!!

James 2:14 ; 24,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he have faith and have not works can faith save him
- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

Where is the two alones?

These are two separate "alone's" in connection with two different things.

James only teaches of one faith that is alone. He only describes it as dead.

Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation.

Faith that trust's in Jesus according to James is never alone.
The only faith that James teaches is alone is dead.
Trusting faith always, always, always, works obedience to the gospel.
James teaches that is the only geniune faith that justifies.

James 2:21-24,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar,
Seest (Do you see Dan?) How faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
- and the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God

James is quoting Genesis 15:6,
- and he(Abraham) believed the Lord and He counted it to him for righteousness

Notice James taught which faith justified Abraham.
Did James teach Abraham was justified by faith alone as Dan teaches?
Or did James teach what I am teaching that Abraham's faith justified him by his works of obedience ?

Let's let James answer again,
James 2:20-24,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar
Seest thou howfaith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
- and the scriptures was fullfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness(quotation of Genesis 15:6) and he was called the friend of God

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified(Abraham) and not by faith alone

The context is how Abraham was justified before God!!!!
James said by obedient faith Abraham was justified.
Never once did James teach Abraham was justified by his belief alone as Dan tries in vain to put words in James' mouth.

Notice Genesis 15:6 God says Abraham is counted righteous by his faith.
James teaches his faith was NOT alone.

Easy to prove again, although unnecessary if you believe what James already taught.
Dan does not see what James taught nor will he believe what James taught because it goes against his presuppositional faith alone salvation gospel.

Abraham already did works before you ever get to Genesis 15:6.
Proving when God counted his faith as righteousness. He was already working the commandments of God therefore His faith was NOT alone!!!

Genesis 12 = Genesis 15.
Genesis 12:1-4,
- now the Lord had said unto Abram Get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred and from thy fathers house unto a land that I will shew thee(God just gave Abraham a direct command.)

Now learn what kind of faith Abraham has. He obeys God therefore he works obedience by doing what God says. He physically goes showing his faith to everyone including God.

Verse 4,
- So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken unto him and Lot went with him and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran

Already Abraham's faith is not alone. He is doing works of obedience to Gods commandments.

So what kind of faith does James teach made Abraham counted as righteous?
An honest man knows the answer.

Genesis 12 = Genesis 15:6,
- and he believed in the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

James, Paul, God and Abraham all teach faith without works cannot Justify man before God.

But too many have been deceived by the do nothing just believe religion known as faith alone.

James 2:20,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works is dead

 

[Titus]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

Before Genesis 15:6 you have Abraham producing fruit, in Genesis 12.
This proves Abraham's faith already was working, producing fruit.
Dan, Genesis 15:6 is a faith with works not faith without works.

Genesis 12:4,
- So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken unto him and Lot went with him...
That's called an obedient faith that is producing fruit. Faithfulness is obedience, which is a fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22,
- but the fruit of the Spirit is love joy peace longsuffering gentleness goodness faithfulness(obedience)

Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6 was already a faith with good works like obedience.

notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous.

You teach the opposite of James. James teaches Abraham's works is what justified him.
James gave the example of Abraham sacrificing Isaac. By this work James said his faith was made perfect and justified Abraham.
James 2:21-24,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works(Dan teaches his works did not make him righteous before God) when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar
- seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
Now James teaches how the Scripture was fulfilled : Abraham's faith which he already taught justified him by works.
- and the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God,
ye see then? How by works a man is justified(Abraham) and NOT by faith alone

Dan teaches Genesis 15:6 is faith alone.
James clearly teaches Abraham's faith was justified made righteous by his works,
Genesis 15:6. His faith was never alone as James would never teach a dead, incomplete faith could justify make one righteous.

notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous.

That is exactly what James taught. You are changing James' teaching to fit your false gospel of no obedience to God to be saved. Just believe with no evidence of genuine faith to be saved.

The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3)

James explained the scripture was fulfilled.
Then makes it clear Abraham's faith when accounted righteous was not alone.
James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified(James is speaking of Abraham's faith) and not by faith alone

Righteousness and justification. Both terms used for the saved.

Justification is the act of God making a sinner righteous.

So when the scripture says Genesis 15:6 God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness.
Then God had justified Abraham or pardoned his sins.
When James says Abraham was justified by his obedience(works). James 2:24.We see then that God made Abraham righteous by his obedience to His commandments.

Romans 5:1,
- therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Paul said faith not faith alone.

James says faith that obeys justifies like Abraham's faith. Never faith alone, James 2:20.

 

[mailmandan]

You teach there are two separate alones.
James never teaches what you teach.
He only teaches one kind of faith that is alone.

Two separate alone's.

1. Paul - faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

2. James - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

Those who by faith trust in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation have been made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:5-9) then created in Christ Jesus for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) That is the order. You put the cart before the horse. Saving faith in Christ does not remain alone (barren of works) so it's not alone in that sense.

You still can't see it?

Teaching two kinds of alone's is teaching a man made doctrine not found in any new testament book.

False. I already showed you.

1. Paul - faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

2. James - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14).

Saved through faith, not works. Hence, faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. The alternative is saved through faith and works which Paul never stated and is unscriptual.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified (Dan teaches man is justified before obedient works thereby contradicting James) and not by faith alone (Dan teaches there are two alones, nowhere in James epistle do you learn this, therefore it is Dan's presuppositional doctrine)

Titus errors by teaching that man is justified (accounted as righteous) by works in James 2:24 in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. I already explained the two separate alone's. One by Paul and the other by James.

Stop adding to the text and only allow James to speak for himself!!!

I'm not adding to the text. I'm reading the text in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Stop ignoring the context and also stop relying on your personal eisegesis.

James 2:14 ; 24,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he have faith and have not works can faith save him
- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

James 2:14 - What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says (key word) he has faith, but he has no works? (to evidence his claim) Can that faith save him? What kind of faith is that? (empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith which is evidenced by works). 24 You see that a person is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by (a bare profession of) faith (that remains) alone. (barren of works) In context this is what James is teaching.

Where is the two alones?

I already showed you twice.

James only teaches of one faith that is alone. He only describes it as dead.

That's because it is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith BUT has no works to EVIDENCE that claim. Simple!

Faith that trust's in Jesus according to James is never alone.

True. Saving faith in Jesus is alive and produces good works yet we are still saved through faith in Christ at its origin and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6)

The only faith that James teaches is alone is dead.

Yes. Empty profession of faith/dead faith which is not genuine faith but a spurious faith.

Trusting faith always, always, always, works obedience to the gospel.

The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." (Ephesians 2:10)

James teaches that is the only geniune faith that justifies.

The only geniune faith that justifies will be evidenced by works yet we are still justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24)

James 2:21-24,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar,
Seest (Do you see Dan?) How faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
- and the scripture was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God

James is quoting Genesis 15:6,
- and he(Abraham) believed the Lord and He counted it to him for righteousness

Notice James taught which faith justified Abraham.
Did James teach Abraham was justified by faith alone as Dan teaches?
Or did James teach what I am teaching that Abraham's faith justified him by his works of obedience ?

Let's let James answer again,
James 2:20-24,
- was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar
Seest thou howfaith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
- and the scriptures was fullfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness(quotation of Genesis 15:6) and he was called the friend of God

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified(Abraham) and not by faith alone

I already thoroughly explained this in post #361. Did you even bother to read it?

The context is how Abraham was justified before God!!!!
James said by obedient faith Abraham was justified.
Never once did James teach Abraham was justified by his belief alone as Dan tries in vain to put words in James' mouth.

Notice Genesis 15:6 God says Abraham is counted righteous by his faith.
James teaches his faith was NOT alone.

Once again, in James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

Easy to prove again, although unnecessary if you believe what James already taught.

I already proved the truth that James taught.

Dan does not see what James taught nor will he believe what James taught because it goes against his presuppositional faith alone salvation gospel.

I fully believe James (James 2:14-24) and Paul. (Romans 4:2-6) You misinterpret Janes and don't believe Paul because it goes against your presuppositional works salvation gospel.

Abraham already did works before you ever get to Genesis 15:6.

Yet his faith was not accounted to him for righteousness until Genesis 15:6. I find it interesting how works mentioned by James were performed by Abraham in Genesis 22, which was many years after Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Proving when God counted his faith as righteousness. He was already working the commandments of God therefore His faith was NOT alone!!!

You are obsessed with works righteousness and will stop at nothing to promote your works based false gospel. You seek to share in the credit with Christ for salvation which is a pride issue. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-26) No supplements needed.

Genesis 12 = Genesis 15.
Genesis 12:1-4,
- now the Lord had said unto Abram Get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred and from thy fathers house unto a land that I will shew thee(God just gave Abraham a direct command.)

Genesis 12 leads up to Genesis 15. Abraham's faith was not accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 12 but in Genesis 15, after God brought Abraham outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham was shown to be righteous many years later in Genesis 22 when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar.

Now learn what kind of faith Abraham has. He obeys God therefore he works obedience by doing what God says. He physically goes showing his faith to everyone including God.

I already learned. Again, when Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Still not salvation by works.

Verse 4,
- So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken unto him and Lot went with him and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran

Already Abraham's faith is not alone. He is doing works of obedience to Gods commandments.

So what kind of faith does James teach made Abraham counted as righteous?
An honest man knows the answer.

We see the answer in Genesis 15:5-6.

Genesis 12 = Genesis 15:6,
- and he believed in the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

Again, Genesis 12 leads up to Genesis 15 when Abraham believed in the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness. Stop getting ahead of yourself.

James, Paul, God and Abraham all teach faith without works cannot Justify man before God.

Neither James, Paul, God nor Abraham teach salvation by works and they all agree that it is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

But too many have been deceived by the do nothing just believe religion known as faith alone.

Actually, too many have been deceived by the must do something to help save yourself religion known as salvation by works. Let the boasting begin!

James 2:20,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works is dead

I already thoroughly covered this in post #361. Be sure to go back and read my post and seriously consider the truth.

 

[Titus]

1. Paul - faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

I asked you to quote James teaching faith alone saves.
Now you are claiming Paul teaches faith alone saves.

Both teach the same faith saves as there in only one faith that saves, Ephesians 4:5,
- One Lord, One faith, one baptism

No one in the entire new testament teaches the gospel saves apart from obeying it.
Which is what you are claiming James is teaching.

 

[Titus]

Actually, too many have been deceived by the must  do something to help save yourself religion known as salvation by works. Let the boasting begin!

Acts 2:37,
- now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles men and brethren what shall we do

Acts 9:6,
- and Saul trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do

Acts 10:6,
- he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side, he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to  do

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out an said Sirs what must I do to be saved

 

[FreeInChrist]

@Titus

James 2:20 NASB95

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Paul Romans 4:5-6;

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

and Ephesians 2:8,9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Two authors in the New Testament with differing messages. I say follow which ever you are comfortable with.
But no one can say that the other is wrong, IMO

 

[Titus]

Nowhere does the Bible teach two alones as Dan teaches.

1. Paul - faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Titus 1:16,
They profess to know God(empty dead faith) but in works they deny Him being abominable and disobedient unto every good work reprobate

Paul teaches those who are disobedient are deniers not true believers.
Dan teaches one believes with no good works to be saved. No obedient works, James 2:20.
Paul would never teach that. Dan, you are teaching against James and Paul.

 

[Titus]

Two authors in the New Testament with differing messages. I say follow which ever you are comfortable with.
But no one can say that the other is wrong, IMO

No friend both men have the Holy Spirit guiding them.
You cannot believe they are contradicting one another.
If they do only a fool would believe the Bible is from God.
I would loose my faith if the bible contradicts itself.

 

[mailmandan]

I asked you to quote James teaching faith alone saves.
Now you are claiming Paul teaches faith alone saves.

Both teach the same faith saves as there in only one faith that saves, Ephesians 4:5,
- One Lord, One faith, one baptism

No one in the entire new testament teaches the gospel saves apart from obeying it.
Which is what you are claiming James is teaching.

You still don't get it. I already explained to you that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" believing the gospel. (Romans 1:16)

For the upteenth time, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works as you believe. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

*Please take the time to meditate on this - Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Titus]

You still don't get it. I already explained to you that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16)

This is Dan's religion.
Dan's religion demands one must only define the word obey to mean believe.
Nowhere does the Bible teach obey only means to believe.
Listen to Paul,teach one must believe the gospel and obey the gospel or be lost.
This proves obedience is much more than just mental belief.

2Thessalonians 1:8,
- in flaming fire taking vegenace on them that know not God(Dont believe) AND that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST

Paul never taught obeying the gospel only means to believe in God.
Dan's religion is a doctrine of fables.

 

[Titus]

*Please take the time to meditate on this - Man is saved through faith and not by works

You are trying to teach me something you do not understand yourself.
James 2:24,
- ye see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Dan is blind.

 

[mailmandan]

Acts 2:37,
- now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles men and brethren what shall we do

Acts 9:6,
- and Saul trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do

Acts 10:6,
- he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side, he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to  do

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out an said Sirs what must I do to be saved

Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21) is not doing something to help save yourself by works. Through repentance/faith we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption) which is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out an said Sirs what must I do to be saved? 31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. those who believe have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe.

Not believe + works. Not Christ + self.

 

[Titus]

For the upteenth time, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works as you believe.

I've never taught James teaches we are saved by works alone.
You are the alone religion not me.
I've always taught James is teaching the kind of faith that saves.
That faith that saves according to James is never alone.
It is always an obedient faith, a faith that works the commandments of God.

Stop misrepresenting me.
That's all you can do.
Its sad.
I dont teach one is saved by works salvation.
One is saved by grace through an obedient faith.

 

[Titus]

Through repentance/faith we are completely trusting in "Another's work,"

Dan refuses to define anything God tells us to do as an obedient work.
Note: Dan first taught we do nothing to be saved now he is saying we do something, repentance.
He needs to make up his mind.

Actually, too many have been deceived by the must do something to help save yourself religion known as salvation by works. Let the boasting begin

Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21) is not doing something to help save yourself by works. Through repentance/faith we are completely trusting in "Another's work,"

That requires mental effort which is a work.
Changing your mind is not doing nothing.
It is doing something.

Repentance is a work,
Matthew 12:41,
- the men of Nineveh shall rise in judgement with this generation and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah...
Jonah 3:10,
- and God saw their works that they turned from their evil way(their works was their repentance by turning away from sin)

The Bible teaches repentance is a good work.
All commandments when obeyed are works.
You cannot obey a commandment and not do a good work.
It is literally impossible.

Acts 17:30,
- and these times of ignorance God overlooked but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent

Repentance is a gospel command.
When obeyed one has done a good work.

Dan's religion is fables.

 

[mailmandan]

This is Dan's religion.
Dan's religion demands one must only define the word obey to mean believe.

Straw man argument. Dan understands that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." That is not a rigid definition of obey.

Nowhere does the Bible teach obey only means to believe.

Neither do I yet we still obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

Listen to Paul,teach one must believe the gospel and obey the gospel or be lost.
This proves obedience is much more than just mental belief.

Your misinterpretation culminates in salvation by works.

2Thessalonians 1:8,
- in flaming fire taking vegenace on them that know not God(Dont believe) AND that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So, we obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ by choosing to believe the gospel.

Paul never taught obeying the gospel only means to believe in God.
Dan's religion is a doctrine of fables.

Paul taught that obeying the gospel means choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8) That is in harmony with what Paul taught in (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Titus' religion is a doctrine of self righteousness/works righteousness.

 

[Titus]

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out an said Sirs what must I do to be saved? 31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. those who believe have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe

Dan you never tell the whole story.
Very next verse they taught him the gospel.
Acts 16:30-31,
- and brought them out and said Sirs what  must I do to be saved,
- and they said believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved,
- and they spake the word of the Lord (The Gospel) and to all that were in his house

How could he already be saved when they had not shared the full gospel of Jesus Christ with him?

Dan's religion is fables.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It might show you cannot explain what you believe James is teaching.

What James is teaching is a method of evaluating "Claims of FAITH". That's to say FAITH will display certain attributes which confirm its existence - i.e. "Good works", and a significantly changed life. In other words "Good works" are the necessary result of FAITH, but in no way the CAUSE of it. The overall context of James makes that clear.

 

[Titus]

Straw man argument. Dan understands that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel

Paul already refuted your made up definition of obeying only meaning believing,
2Thessalonians 1:8,
- in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God(unbelief) AND, AND, AND,
on them that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul does not teach obeying the gospel only means to believe the gospel.
You do not teach Paul's gospel.

 

[Titus]

What James is teaching is a method of evaluating "Claims of FAITH". That's to say FAITH will display certain attributes which confirm its existence - i.e. "Good works", and a significantly changed life. In other words "Good works" are the necessary result of FAITH, but in no way the CAUSE of it. The overall context of James makes that clear.

Quote James teaching faith alone saves.
Instead of explaining what you think James says.