Romans 4:5 disputes the Calvinist Ordu Salutis

[Bubba]

When it comes the turn of the individual to be delivered from the kingdom of darkness into that of the Son of God’s love, how does such a thing come to pass? How does salvation become his personal experience?

I would imagine there are quite a few opinions on this topic. But the bottom line is the entire argument between Calvinism and Arminianism comes down to this. For it hardly needs saying that if salvation is unconditional, that means it is applied unconditionally. Likewise, if salvation is conditional, it is applied conditionally.

 

[Frank Russell]

The thing is the bible presents faith/coming to Christ/eating his flesh etc before the acquisition of life (regeneration)

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Acts 11:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So you are saying, because the apostles could believe prior to the crucifixion, then anyone can.

 

[TomL]

So you are saying, because the apostles could believe prior to the crucifixion, then anyone can.

No

None of those verses concern the apostles alone

 

[Frank Russell]

No

None of those verses concern the apostles alone

However, whatever you were saying, I recall how even Peter couldn't endure believing to the end during the crucifixion event. The faith spoken about in regards to salvation came to life at pentecost.

In terms of how faith comes to be, I see it as God developing our capacity to believe before we do. Whether that involves a form of regeneration or not, is a mystery.

 

[TomL]

However, whatever you were saying, I recall how even Peter couldn't endure believing to the end during the crucifixion event. The faith spoken about in regards to salvation came to life at pentecost.

In terms of how faith comes to be, I see it as God developing our capacity to believe before we do. Whether that involves a form of regeneration or not, is a mystery.

Well these are before Pentecost

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

In both cases we see the unregenerate

In the first case, the unregenerate believe

and in the second they would have believed if not blinded and hardened

 

[Frank Russell]

Well these are before Pentecost

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

In both cases we see the unregenerate

In the first case, the unregenerate believe

and in the second they would have believed if not blinded and hardened

This discussion reminds me of a portion from Sun Tsu's Art of War.

You appear to be obscuring your position so it is formless, so it cannot be addressed.

So not really sure if a response is necessary.

 

[TomL]

This discussion reminds me of a portion from Sun Tsu's Art of War.

You appear to be obscuring your position so it is formless, so it cannot be addressed.

So not really sure if a response is necessary.

Are you serious?

My position is clear man is capable of belief without regeneration.

 

[Frank Russell]

Are you serious?

My position is clear man is capable of belief without regeneration.

I don't know. Except for the above, your posts seem to fall short of stating what your belief is.

Also it is unclear what you think the threshold for saving belief is.

A certain type of faith is required, not just any belief.

Part of this belief requires Jesus to have died first.

 

[TomL]

I don't know. Except for the above, your posts seem to fall short of stating what your belief is.

Also it is unclear what you think the threshold for saving belief is.

A certain type of faith is required, not just any belief.

Part of this belief requires Jesus to have died first.

My soteriology is that of the common SBC view of provisionism

One must believe the gospel of 1cor and trust in Christ for remission of sin and life

 

[Frank Russell]

My soteriology is that of the common SBC view of provisionism

One must believe the gospel of 1cor and trust in Christ for remission of sin and life

I can only respond to what you put in your posts. You state you believe X, but that means many things to many people. Using words to explain what you believe and how you believe it as you reply helps to understand.

In anycase, I'm sure I'll notice what you mean eventually. Just not today.

 

[TomL]

I can only respond to what you put in your posts. You state you believe X, but that means many things to many people. Using words to explain what you believe and how you believe it as you reply helps to understand.

In anycase, I'm sure I'll notice what you mean eventually. Just not today.

This should have told you something

My soteriology is that of the common SBC view of provisionism

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

The thing is the bible presents faith/coming to Christ/eating his flesh etc before the acquisition of life (regeneration)

So a spiritually dead sinner can eat spiritually Christs flesh ? You know thats spiritual dont you ?

 

[TomL]

@TomL



So a spiritually dead sinner can eat spiritually Christs flesh ? You know thats spiritual dont you ?

What does the verse say

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

you must do it to have life

 

[brightfame52]

What does the verse say

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

you must do it to have life

It doesnt say that. I know the eating is spiritual, so it denotes spiritual life.

 

[TomL]

It doesnt say that. I know the eating is spiritual, so it denotes spiritual life.

Really ? Demonstrate that from the scripture

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

you must do it to have life

 

[brightfame52]

Really ? Demonstrate that from the scripture

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

you must do it to have life

So you believe eating Jesus flesh is natural, literial ?

 

[TomL]

So you believe eating Jesus flesh is natural, literial ?

No I do not, but you must do it to have life

Without doing it you have no life

regeneration makes alive

It cannot be had until you eat his flesh drink his blood

Life everywhere in the bible follows after faith

you must come to Jesus to have life

You must believe Jesus is the Christ to have life

you must repent to have life

You must hear Christ's word and believe him who sent him

 

[TomL]

@TomL



So a spiritually dead sinner can eat spiritually Christs flesh ? You know thats spiritual dont you ?

Yes and the bible says you must do it to have life.

Care to address the verse?

 

[civic]

Yes and the bible says you must do it to have life.

Care to address the verse?

good luck getting any interaction with any passage.

 

[TomL]

good luck getting any interaction with any passage.

It seems that way

No one should exalt a system of theology above that of God's word. Unfortunately I have noted on another forum that often Calvinists reject scripture for the sake of their theology

PS I had that same problem you mention on that other site