James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[dwight92070]

See #342

 

[dwight92070]

Titus said: Belief itself is a work.

Titus obviously not only doesn't acknowledge what a work is, but he also does not acknowledge that Jesus is using figurative language in John 6:29: "This is the work of God of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Of course he knowingly "interprets" this in a way that fits his preconceived doctrine.

Jesus is NOT calling belief a work here. He is saying that the work of God that a non-believer must "do" to please God - is not a work at all, but it is to believe in Jesus.

Paul confirms this in Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
Also Romans 4:2-5. Look at verse 5: "But to the one who does NOT work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

It proves I answer if I want to.

It proves that you cannot, at least show that you can be honest. If it was me not answering your questions, you would let everyone know.

Blind men are oblivious to being refuted.

Who know that better than you? You are proving that to be very true. Fine, I'll not ask again, but I will address Matthew 16 more in depth for any young true lover of the truth, seeking to be more perfect in God's word.

 

[Titus]

See #342

All works done in salvation are not our works.
They are Gods works for He authorized them.
If they were our works then we would be inventing our own conditions for salvation.

Yes belief is a work.

You ever been in the military?

When your Sargent gives you an order do you do what he orders?
Or does he work those commands?

All commandments are worked/obeyed my the soldier being given the command.

Belief in Jesus is a direct command given by God.

Disobedience is a work of the flesh, Galatians 5:19-21.

Paul teaches Titus not to practise works of the flesh,
Titus 1:16,
- they profess to know God but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient and disqualified for every every good work

Do you see how Paul taught Titus denying who Jesus is, is a work of disobedience?
Notice also Paul,teaches Titus that by not believing they disqualify themselves from good works.


Paul is contrasting a work of disobedience with unbelief.
Therefore Paul is teaching unbelief is a work of disobedience.

Then the opposite is also true.
Since unbelief is a work of disobedience.
Belief is a good work.

Titus 1:16,
- they profess to know God but in works they deny Him being disobedient
- and disqualified for every good work( like obedient faith)


Unbelief disobedient work.
Belief obedient work.

Working Gods commandments is obedient faith.
1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another

Can you work Gods commandments without doing a work?

Can you disbelieve without doing a work?
Can you obey the commandment to believe without doing a work?

John 6:28-29 is a literal work. It's not imaginary.
The Greek words used by Jesus are literal not figurative.
To say they are changes Jesus teaching into something He never taught.

These same Greek words are used in these verses. Notice they are literal.
Matthew 5:16 - that they may see(literal) your good works erga

Revelation 20:12 - judged according to their works(literal) erga

Romans 4:2 - Abraham justified by works(ergon)

Conclusion: John uses the word ergon. So Jesus used the literal word ergon - this is the work of God...

Do you think faith is not a literal work of God?
- that you believe
Do you think God is not working a literal work in us when we believe?
Or is God working a work in us when we believe just figuratively?

 

[Titus]

John 10:37-38,
- if I do not do the works of My Father do not believe Me
-but if I do them, even thou you do not believe Me believe the works

God did literal works that He might work faith in us.

 

[Titus]

1 Corinthians 12:13,
- for by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body.....

Jesus' great commission was water baptism because Jesus commanded this baptism.
The only baptism that was commanded was water.
Holy Spirit baptism had no men baptizing other men.
Jesus in His great commission commanded His disciples to go and baptize.
Holy Spirit baptism is only done directly by God. Specifically the baptizer is Jesus, Mark 1:8,
- I(man) baptized you with water but He(Jesus,God) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit

Holy Spirit baptism was a promise,
Water baptism is a command.
Acts 1:4-5,
- and while staying with them Jesus commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem but to wait for the promise of the Father which He said you heard from Me for John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is spoken of by Jesus as something God will do not something the disciples are commanded to do.

So. In Acts 2:38 we hear Peter command them to repent and be baptized. IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

Baptism in water was always in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Lord or in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:18-20.
Notice Cornelius has already received the Holy Spirit and then Peter commands him to be baptized in the name of the Lord. This baptism is water baptism.
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ...
Acts 10:47-48 - and Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...

The great commission baptism is water baptism.

So in Acts 2 we see the Jews being baptized into the church which is Jesus' body, Colossians 1:18.
Because Peter preached the great commission to them.
First they were baptized in verse 38.
Then in verse 47 it reads,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved

We learn that baptism in the name of the Lord put the saved in the church/body.

Water baptism: Agent(man, John the Baptist) Holy Spirit baptism: Agent(Jesus).
Water baptism: element(water) Holy Spirit baptism: element(Holy Spirit)

An agent acts on behalf of another to cause something to happen.
Element: substance or medium, water immersion or Holy Spirit immersion.
Subject in baptism: Both baptisms the subject is the believer.

1Corinthians 12:13 - for in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body/church...

Here the agent is the Holy Spirit as He is the one baptizing the believer into the church/body of Christ.

Remember in Holy Spirit baptism Jesus is the agent and the Holy Spirit is the element.
Since the Holy Spirit is the agent in 1 Corinthians 12:13 He cannot be the element into what the believers are being baptized into i.e. the one body/church.
Therefore the water must be the element that the body/church is immersed i.
Therefore water baptism is the baptism in 1Corinthians 12:13.

But the agent in water baptism is man. Here we have the Holy Spirit being the agent.
- in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body...
This is figurative language.
The Holy Spirit is not literally the baptizer.
This verse is using metonamy.
Jesus was said to be the baptizer in water baptism also making Him the agent for both water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism.
But one was only Jesus literally being the one baptizing i.e. Holy Spirit baptism.
John 4:1-2,
- now Jesus learned that the Pharisees were offended because He taught and baptized more disciples than John, though Jesus Himself DID NOT BAPTIZE

Then how did Jesus baptize in water?
He baptized them by His authority. He gave them the orders to be baptized in water. It was by Gods instruction His word that they were baptized. In this sense Jesus baptized them through His word, instruction.

Likewise the Holy Spirit baptized the Corinthians in 1Corinthians 12:13 by His revelation His word. Paul preached water baptism through the work of the Holy Spirit. By the authority of God.
The Holy Spirit is working through the word here. This is why - in one Spirit. Is metonamy. The Spirit Himself is used as His guiding instruction, His revelation i.e. the gospel revealed by the Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16,
- All scripture is breathed out by God(the work of the Spirit) and is profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and for instruction in righteousness

 

[FreeInChrist]

John 10:37-38,
- if I do not do the works of My Father do not believe Me
-but if I do them, even thou you do not believe Me believe the works

God did literal works that He might work faith in us.

I do not want in the middle of this... but if this be true "God did literal works that He might work faith in us." then it is proof when I always say "Faith is a privilege."

 

[Titus]

I do not want in the middle of this... but if this be true "God did literal works that He might work faith in us." then it is proof when I always say "Faith is a privilege."

We're very privileged to have the love of Jesus on us. None of us deserve Gods mercy and grace. We are totally undeserving for the great sacrifice Jesus made for us. By His death, burial and ressurection we have evidence. That evidence gives us faith.
If Jesus did not do the works that He did then we would have no reason to have faith in Him.
God suffered to save us because He loves us.
We are very privileged to have God love us when we don't deserve His love.

 

[Behold]

Also there is no mention of men or human observers in the verse.

James teaches that "i will show YOU (thee) my faith by my works" in verse 18.

 

[Titus]

James teaches that "i will show YOU (thee) my faith by my works" in verse 18.

Good observation.
I like that you are thinking on these things.

James does not mean works only justify before men.
He's teaching works give evidence to men of those with true faith.
True genuine faith has action, it can be seen, evidenced by others.
James means also that faith alone is not geniune. Faith that has no evidence is dead and worthlesss.

Notice the faith that justifies can be seen by ones actions.
Abraham's faith evidence of his actions with his son Isaac.
Rehabs faith evidence by hiding the spies. Geniune faith is evidenced by actions.

Real saving faith according to James is never alone it always has action.
James speaks of faith with no works as,
Dead.
Worthless.
Demons believe but no obedience.
Rahab and Abraham's faith justified because it obeyed had works.

While James does teach that true faith can be seen by men.
James is teaching about true faith justifying before God not just appearances before men.

Anyone who tries to interpret James chapter 2 as not teaching on what kind of faith saves needs to read carefully verse 14.

James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith without works can faith alone save him

James asks the question if faith alone can save.
He gives the answer to his question in the remainder of the chapter.

James 2:24;26,
- ye see then how that by works(obedient faith) a man is justified and not by faith alone(belief without obedience)

Since James asks the question can faith alone save then the justification here is salvation.
Justification before God and evidenced before man as genuine faith.

James 2:26,
- for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

James use of the word dead is referring to being spiritually dead. No power to save, justify.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Many that deny that works are necessary for justification claim that James 2:24 speaks only of appearing righteous before people, not before God.

BUT, like many others, you're mixing up "CAUSE" and "EFFECT".

James is essentially a "Litmus test" that illustrates the difference between "Religion", and Born Again SALVATION.

In a nutshell, if WHAT YOU CALL FAITH, doesn't cause a life in you THAT PRODUCES "GOOD WORKS", then it's not "saving FAITH" at all. It's nothing but "Religious rhetoric" which is worthless spiritually.

Melancthon: "It IS FAITH ALONE that saves, but saving faith will never be alone".
Spurgeon: "A FAITH that doesn't CHANGE a person, won't SABVE them either".

FAITH is the CAUSE, and good works are the EFFECT of the FAITH.

 

[Titus]

BUT, like many others, you're mixing up "CAUSE" and "EFFECT".

James is essentially a "Litmus test" that illustrates the difference between "Religion", and Born Again SALVATION.

In a nutshell, if WHAT YOU CALL FAITH, doesn't cause a life in you THAT PRODUCES "GOOD WORKS", then it's not "saving FAITH" at all. It's nothing but "Religious rhetoric" which is worthless spiritually.

Melancthon: "It IS FAITH ALONE that saves, but saving faith will never be alone".
Spurgeon: "A FAITH that doesn't CHANGE a person, won't SABVE them either".

FAITH is the CAUSE, and good works are the EFFECT of the FAITH.

I'll agree if you can quote James teaching faith alone saves us.
James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have not works can faith save him

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I'll agree if you can quote James teaching faith alone saves us.
James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have not works can faith save him

James isn't the ONLY BOOK in the bible. Handle Eph 2:8,9

 

[mailmandan]

James isn't the ONLY BOOK in the bible. Handle Eph 2:8,9

Amen! We need to read James 2:24 in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo":

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Titus]

James isn't the ONLY BOOK in the bible. Handle Eph 2:8,9

No quote of James teaching faith only saves.
By you not answering my question shows a weakness in your claim that James teaches we are saved by faith only.

My post is on James 2 not Paul's letter to the Ephesians. This is redirecting by not answering my question instead you ask or demand that I answer yours.
It might show you cannot explain what you believe James is teaching.
But that's not the only possible reason.

Unless Ephesians 2:8-9 shows a clear gospel plan of salvation that can only lead to one logical conclusion that salvation is by faith alone.
Then yes, my teaching on James would be a contradiction to Paul's teaching on how the gospel saves.
That would obviously make my understanding of salvation and my teaching on James to be error, misinterpretation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is Paul teaching what is the true plan of salvation Grace, faith.
And a false plan devised by man: Merit based system that man himself saves himself which leads to prideful boasting of his own works.

- for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast

Nowhere does Paul teach in these two verses or in any of his epistles that God only requires belief and no obedience to His gospel commandments to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is Paul teaching against boastful works aka works of mans merit.
Of course works of these kind are found nowhere in Gods plan to save man.

Paul teaches on the same works in Romans chapter 4.
Romans 4:2, Ephesians 2:8-9,
- for if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to boast but not before God
- not of works lest any man should boast

Both books Paul is teaching on meritorious works because these works would lead to boasting of how you saved yourself not needing God.

Jews thought they could accomplish this through keeping the law of Moses but not even the Law.
They added their own laws to the law of Moses. This truly is works of man not works of God being the cause of their salvation.

Works James is teaching is not the same.
James is teaching of obeying the gospel of Christ.
James is teaching works of obedience to Gods will. Not works that save by meriting salvation.
This is why you can teach that works justify and not contradict Paul.
James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

James is teaching that the gospel does nothing unless you obey it.
So if you claim you have faith meaning the gospel but do not obey it. Then you have a dead faith that isnt genuine.

Faith alone according to James is worthlesss because theres no obedience, it's dead.

Only faith that is geniune according to James works the commandments in Jesus' gospel.
It acts with obedient faith. Paul teaches the same message Romans 16:26 ; 15:18.

Never once does James teach faith alone is genuine faith.

In Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 the law of Moses has been replaced with the law of Christ.
Therefore it is no longer Gods will for anyone to be working the commandments in the old law.
These works are completely condemned during the new testament.

 

[Titus]

Amen! We need to read James 2:24 in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo":

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Quote James teaching faith alone saves. Dont give me your commentary. Quote James himself.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

Some just don't see it.

 

[Titus]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.

You claim you are saved by faith alone.
By your own teaching, faith alone is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith,
True faith has works that is the evidence that it is geniune.
You are trying to be saved by faith alone which according to James is dead.
No one can be saved by a dead faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Quote James teaching faith alone saves. Dont give me your commentary. Quote James himself.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

Some just don't see it.

Quote James in context. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Perfect Harmony*

James 2:24,
- ye see then how that by works a man is justified (shown to be righteous) and not by (an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains) alone (barren of works).

You just don't see it.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

HERMENEUTICS

 

[mailmandan]

You claim you are saved by faith alone.

Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not to be confused with a bare profession of faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. These are two separate "alone's" in connection with two different things.

By your own teaching, faith alone is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith,

Faith that remains "alone" (barren of works) is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. The absence of evidence can be construed as evidence of absence. Saving faith in Christ results in producing good works (Ephesians 2:10) so it's not "alone" in that sense but we're still made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

True faith has works that is the evidence that it is geniune.

Evidence being the key word here. Says/claims to have faith. (James 2:14)

You are trying to be saved by faith alone which according to James is dead.
No one can be saved by a dead faith.

Again, James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works) which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

 

[Selah]

Amen @mailmandan …

It’s clear to me that the Bible teaches that faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and subsequent good works go hand in hand. Why? …because they are interconnected and dependent on each other. Works, whether in planting seeds, teaching the Word of God, singing, giving, feeding those in need, etc., all demonstrate the faith in Christ that one has. It is something we do through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, faith without works is dead. Let’s read it again.

James 2:20-26 (NKJV) 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent [them] out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

s e l a h