James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Titus]

So there is a difference between works one does to earn salvation versus obedience to God's will. This is a distinction many refuse to make and seem to want to make obedience to God's will a work of merit

Your misinterpretation culminates in salvation by works

I've heard this from you.
Stop wasting my time.
Matthew 22:29.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan refuses to define anything God tells us to do as an obedient work.

Straw man argument. Titus defines everything as a work for salvation so even faith ends up becoming just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works.

Note: Dan first taught we do nothing to be saved now he is saying we do something, repentance.
He needs to make up his mind.

There is nothing we could do to earn our salvation (which is not saying there is nothing we must do to be saved - Acts 16:30-31) A gift still must be received. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) My mind has been made up for several years now. Saved by grace through faith, not works.

That requires mental effort which is a work.

So, everything is a work for salvation to you which explains your confusion.

Changing your mind is not doing nothing.
It is doing something.

I never said we do absolutely nothing in order to become saved. Repenting and believing the gospel is not doing nothing but it's also not doing something to merit salvation. Through repentance/faith we are receiving the free gift of eternal life and Christ still receives all the glory.

Repentance is a work,

Everything is a work to you. Based on your flawed logic, repentance "is" works and so if faith.

Matthew 12:41,
- the men of Nineveh shall rise in judgement with this generation and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah...

The men of Nineveh changed their minds at the preaching of Jonah after he entered the city and cried out that in forty days, Nineveh shall be overthrown if they do not repent of their evil ways yet we see that the people of Nineveh did repent and believed God.

Jonah 3:10,
- and God saw their works that they turned from their evil way(their works was their repentance by turning away from sin)

This was the fruit of their repentance. (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20)

The Bible teaches repentance is a good work.

The Bible teaches that repentance is a change of mind and works are the fruit of repentance.

All commandments when obeyed are works.
You cannot obey a commandment and not do a good work.
It is literally impossible.

There is still a difference between obeying commands in order to become saved and obeying commands after we have been saved. Everything remains a work for salvation to you which explains why you trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

Acts 17:30,
- and these times of ignorance God overlooked but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent

We must repent (change our mind) or else we will not come to believe the gospel and become saved.

We repentance is a gospel command.

Repent and believe the gospel. If we don't repent then we will not believe the gospel and become saved.

When obeyed one has done a good work.

Dan's religion is fables.

Saved through faith (repentance implied because repentance precedes faith - Acts 20:21) not works. Ephesians 2:8,9 is not a fable. Titus just does not understand which explains why he teaches works salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan you never tell the whole story.
Very next verse they taught him the gospel.
Acts 16:30-31,
- and brought them out and said Sirs what  must I do to be saved,
- and they said believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved,
- and they spake the word of the Lord (The Gospel) and to all that were in his house

How could he already be saved when they had not shared the full gospel of Jesus Christ with him?

Dan's religion is fables.

The gospel was established in Acts 16:31, (BELIEVE) just like it was in Romans 1:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. You continue to "add" works to the gospel and call that the full gospel but it's a false gospel. I've heard Mormons and Roman Catholics use the term "full gospel" after they "add" their works to it as well.

 

[mailmandan]

I've heard this from you.
Stop wasting my time.
Matthew 22:29.

Oh, the irony.

 

[Titus]

Oh, the irony.

You always come to me.
I did not come to you.
You are very confused.

 

[Titus]

Dan refuses to define anything God tells us to do as an obedient work

Straw man argument. Titus defines everything as a work for salvation so even faith ends up becoming just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works

Its absolute truth.
Heres the proof.
Are commandments of God obeyed by us?
If so, then when we do/obey Gods commandments are those our good works?

 

[Titus]

Still waiting ?
I challenge you to prove obeying any of Gods commandments can be accomplished without doing a good work?
Be honest.

 

[mailmandan]

Its absolute truth.
Heres the proof.
Are commandments of God obeyed by us?
If so, then when we do/obey Gods commandments are those our good works?

You don't teach absolute truth. You teach salvation by works/works righteousness. We obey commandments of God and God does not obey them for us. Obeying His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we have come to know Him. (1 John 2:3)

After having been saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:5-9) we are then God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Notice the order.

 

[mailmandan]

Still waiting ?
I challenge you to prove obeying any of Gods commandments can be accomplished without doing a good work?
Be honest.

You are always looking for that "gotcha" moment that never happens. Stop fighting the truth and believe the gospel.

 

[Titus]

There is nothing we could do to earn our salvation (which is not saying there is nothing we must do to be saved - Acts 16:30-31)

I dont teach merit based salvation. Your constant labeling me as a merit based salvationist makes you a dishonest person.
I'm tired of your libel. You've lost my respect.

Proverbs 6:16-19,
- these six things doth the Lord hate, yea seven are an abomination to Him,
- a proud look,a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood


I've told you repeatedly I do not believe in earning salvation.
I've told you repeatedly that I do not believe there is any kind of works that merit salvation.
Yet you continue your accusations that this is what I teach.
I don't lie about what you believe. Yet you lie about what I believe and teach.
You are a sad man Dan.

Now answer my question.

 

[Titus]

You don't teach absolute truth. You teach salvation by works/works righteousness. We obey commandments of God and God does not obey them for us. Obeying His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we have come to know Him. (1 John 2:3)

After having been saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:5-9) we are then God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Notice the order.

Dodge.
Are obeying Gods commandments our good works?
Can one obey a commandment of God and not do a good work?

By you not answering my question proves it exposes you for what you truly are.
A dishonest false teacher.
You have yet to address my question.
I doubt you will because you lack integrity.

 

[Titus]

You don't teach absolute truth. You teach salvation by works/works righteousness

Liar

 

[mailmandan]

I dont teach merit based salvation. Your constant labeling me as a merit based salvationist makes you a dishonest person.

Salvation based on your personal definition of non-meritorious works is still merit based salvation no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. You just can't see it.

I'm tired of your libel. You've lost my respect.

You label me as a faith onlyist per James 2:24, which I am not.

Proverbs 6:16-19,
- these six things doth the Lord hate, yea seven are an abomination to Him,
- a proud look,a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood

Well, you have lied against me. Multiple times.

I've told you repeatedly I do not believe in earning salvation.

You call it not earning but any works that you "add" to salvation through faith, not works would add merit (at least in part).

I've told you repeatedly that I do not believe there is any kind of works that merit salvation.

If works in "addition" to faith are necessary for salvation then there is merit in accomplishing those works. You can't have it both ways.

Yet you continue your accusations that this is what I teach.

The truth hurts.

I don't lie about what you believe. Yet you lie about what I believe and teach.

You have lied about what I believe on multiple occasions.

You are a sad man Dan.

You are unbeleivable!

Now answer my question.

What's the point. You only see, hear and believe what you want to see, hear and believe. The CoC has really done a number on you.

 

[mailmandan]

Liar

The truth hurts! Just man up and own it.

 

[Titus]

Salvation based on your personal definition of non-meritorious works is still merit based salvation no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. You just can't see it.

You label me as a faith onlyist per James 2:24, which I am not.

Well, you have lied against me. Multiple times.

You call it not earning but any works that you "add" to salvation through faith, not works would add merit (at least in part).

If works in "addition" to faith are necessary for salvation then there is merit in accomplishing those works. You can't have it both ways.

The truth hurts.

You have lied about what I believe on multiple occasions.

You are unbeleivable!

What's the point. You only see, hear and believe what you want to see, hear and believe. The CoC has really done a number on you.

I knew you would not answer questions because it exposes your false teaching.
Stay in your self- made religion.

Quote me lying about you.
This is just another lie you are telling.
Give book chapter and verse where there are two faith alone faith's in James' teaching?
You already claim there is.

Or better yet, quit bothering me. I never wanted you coming on here in the first place knowing you dont reason with anyone. You already think you got James all figured out.
Go bother someone else. You cant handle a simple question like are obeying commandments good works. Shows just how deceitful and dishonest you really are.

 

[mailmandan]

I knew you would not answer questions because it exposes your false teaching.
Stay in your self- made religion.

I've answered enough questions and none of your loaded questions have exposed anything except your own confusion. Self made religion? Wow. Your CoC indoctrination has reached its pinnacle.

Quote me lying about you.
This is just another lie you are telling.

For starters, you have previously accused me of teaching "faith only" - per James 2:24 and teaching a gospel of disobedience. Now, salvation by works (even if it's only works in part) is still salvation by faith AND WORKS. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Give book chapter and verse where there are two faith alone faith's in James' teaching?
You already claim there is.

You still don't understand. I did not say two faith alone's in James teaching. I said salvation through faith in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) - Paul's teaching and an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works - James 2:14) are two separate alone's in connection with two different things.

Or better yet, quit bothering me. I never wanted you coming on here in the first place knowing you dont reason with anyone. You already think you got James all figured out.

I do have James figured out. You need to read James 2:24 in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

Go bother someone else. You cant handle a simple question like are obeying commandments good works. Shows just how deceitful and dishonest you really are.

I said obeying commandments for believers (1 John 2:3) are good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Asked and answered.

Then you are teaching Gods people in the old testament could be disobedient to God, not do the work He gave them to do and still be saved eternally.

What work is that? Were people in the old testament saved through faith or by works?

Again you help me prove your gospel is salvation by belief alone and no obedience.
Salvation through disobedience.

Salvation is through belief/faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). No obedience? Obedience/works "follows" having been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10) That is not salvation through disobedience. You just have the cart before the horse, again.

 

[Titus]

I've answered enough questions and none of your loaded questions have exposed anything except your

You refuse to answer questions that makes it too obvious that you are a false teacher.
Your theology doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

For starters, you have previously accused me of teaching "faith only" - per James 2:24

That is the only faith alone ever mentioned by James.
You are the one that teaches James teaches we are saved by faith alone.
Prove you don't teach James teaches salvation by faith alone if you don't like me saying what you have said multiple times.

No obedience? Obedience/works "follows" having been saved through faith.

I said obeying commandments for believers (1 John 2:3) are good works

This is another dodge.
I didn't ask you if good works are only after salvation when one obeys commandments.
You just created a straw man.
That wasn't my question and you know it.

I asked if obeying any, any, any, of Gods commandments is a good work.
You refuse to answer this because you are a dishonest liar and you know it exposes your false teaching.

I do have James figured out.

I'll prove again you don't teach the truth of James.
Answer this question.
In James 2:24, who is James including in this verse?
- ye see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Is James teaching about Abraham's faith here?
Can you give an honest answer?

James 2:21-24 read through and tell me if James is including Abraham in verse 24?
If so then we know James does not teach that Abraham was justified by faith alone and no works in Genesis 15:6.

You teach Abraham was justified by faith alone.
That must be the other alones you keep taking ablout.
So show this other faith alone James is teaching then?
He's teaching ON ABRAHAMS FAITH THAT SAVED HIM AS HE QUOTED GENESIS 15:6

- And he believed the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

You keep teaching justification in James is not salvation.
But here James is teaching exactly what justified and counted him as righteous.

THAT IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION BEFORE MEN BEING TAUGHT BY JAMES, James 2:23 = Genesis 15:6.

You are blind.
You have no understanding of what James is teaching.
You cannot quote Genesis 15:6 and then try to claim James is teaching justification before men.
He would not mention Genesis 15:6 if James wasn't teaching on faith that saves, James 2:14.

Your explanation of this chapter is the exact opposite of the kind of faith that James teaches justified Abraham.

 

[JLB]

Paul is teaching the works of the law of Moses in the book of Romans. No one can be saved by working the law of Moses, Galatians 5:1-6.

Paul taught the law of faith in the book of Romans.

Do you understand how the law (principle) of faith operates?


The entire book of Romans is contextually framed by this principle of faith.


James and Paul teach exactly the same principle of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

You refuse to answer questions that makes it too obvious that you are a false teacher.
Your theology doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

My theology doesn't hold up to your biased scrutiny but it holds up to scripture.

That is the only faith alone ever mentioned by James.

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, belief/faith - "stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation." Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14)

You are the one that teaches James teaches we are saved by faith alone.

Paul teaches we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) hence, faith alone. Saved through faith and works would be your only other option in contradiction to Paul.

Prove you don't teach James teaches salvation by faith alone if you don't like me saying what you have said multiple times.

James' focus is not on how we are saved but is focused on exposing empty professions of faith. (James 2:14) We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18)

This is another dodge.
I didn't ask you if good works are only after salvation when one obeys commandments.
You just created a straw man.
That wasn't my question and you know it.

So, which good works (Ephesians 2:10) precede salvation? Does a bad tree produce good fruit? (Matthew 7:17)

I asked if obeying any, any, any, of Gods commandments is a good work.

Can a lost unbeliever obey God's commandments?

You refuse to answer this because you are a dishonest liar and you know it exposes your false teaching.

Wow. Calling me a liar, again. You are desperate to win your argument at all costs and you are also desperate to turn faith (along with everything else) into just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. What a mess!

I'll prove again you don't teach the truth of James.
Answer this question.
In James 2:24, who is James including in this verse?
- ye see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

In the immediate context, Abraham. You error by interpreting "justified by works" in James 2:24 to mean accounted as righteous/saved by works because you take this verse out of context and you also fail to harmonize it with Romans 4:2-6. So do Roman Catholics and Mormons.

Is James teaching about Abraham's faith here?
Can you give an honest answer?

James is teaching that Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works. (James 2:21-24) Paul is teaching that Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith and not by works. (Romans 4:2-3)

James 2:21-24 read through and tell me if James is including Abraham in verse 24?

Yes.

If so then we know James does not teach that Abraham was justified by faith alone and no works in Genesis 15:6.

Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith and not his works in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and shown to be righteous in (James 2:21-24)

You teach Abraham was justified by faith alone.

Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith alone "apart from works". (Romans 4:2-6) Do you disagree with Paul? You still don't understand that James uses the term "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "shown to be righteous." This remains your Achilles heel.

That must be the other alones you keep taking ablout.
So show this other faith alone James is teaching then?

I explained this to you multiple times already but the truth just continues to go right over your head. Sigh.

He's teaching ON ABRAHAMS FAITH THAT SAVED HIM AS HE QUOTED GENESIS 15:6

- And he believed the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 many years before he was shown to be righteous when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

You keep teaching justification in James is not salvation.

Shown to be righteous is not salvation. (James 2:21) Accounted as righteous is salvation. (Genesis 15:6)

But here James is teaching exactly what justified and counted him as righteous.

False. Your conclusion culminates in salvation by works in contradiction to Paul. (Romans 4:2-6)

THAT IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION BEFORE MEN BEING TAUGHT BY JAMES.

Man is shown to be righteous before God and men.

You are blind.
You have no understanding of what James is teaching.

Just the opposite.

You cannot quote Genesis 15:6 and then try to claim James is teaching justification before men.

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Fits the context.

He would not mention Genesis 15:6 if James wasn't teaching on faith that saves, James 2:14.

Says/claims to have faith. (James 2:14) Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. *Hermeneutics.

Your explanation of this chapter is the exact oppisite of the kind of faith that James teaches justified Abraham.

YOU STILL JUST DON'T GET IT. Sigh.

 

[Titus]

Is James teaching about Abraham's faith here?

Yes.

You just admitted Abraham was not saved by faith alone without realizing it.
James 2:24 does not teach Abraham was saved by faith alone. It teaches the opposite of salvation by faith alone.
Genesis 15:6 is God counting Abraham's faith as righteousness which is salvation.
Then James teaches the conclusion of Abraham's faith thst justified him before God, Genesis 15:6 was not alone.

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous

James quoted Genesis 15:6 where God justified Abraham and accounted His faith to him as righteousness.
Therefore James is teaching Abraham was justified before God in chapter 2.
It's a ridiculous position to teach Genesis 15:6 is not justification before God.
This is what James is teaching about Abraham's faith.

James 2:21-24,
-seest thou how by faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect
and the scripture(Genesis 15:6) was fulfilled which saith Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of God

That has nothing to do with justification before men. Unless you want to claim that is what is taking place in Genesis 15:6.

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous

Really have you never paid attention to what James says that Abraham's faith and works made his faith perfect. This kind of faith is what fulfilled the scripture which saith, Genesis 15:6.

God justified Abraham therefore accounted His faith as righteousness, Genesis 15:6.
This is what James literally says. You deny this.

Waste of time.