That is a funny position for an Bahá'í adherent
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Behold
Well-known member
He posted that God's Grace is "Irresistible'..
Be sure to study your "TULIP">
Look up the "I"...
So, there is some John Calvinism in his "Baha"i".
This is not an exceptional situation.. nothing unique., as Calvin's Heresy is found in the philosophies of unbelievers as well.
civic
Well-known member
Yes it’s roots started with the Greeks , pagans, gnostics which Augustine brought into the church and Calvin carried his torch
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi, Behold and @TomL
I am not using the concept in the same way that Calvin used it.
As you can read in my post below, I believe that "God expects from us to use our free will to make the right choices".
In my view, God's grace is irresistible not because it crushes free will, but because God is wise, willing and powerful enough to persuade us. In this way, God's love and purpose for his children is not frustrated. God wins always.
Let's remember: in persuasion there is no coercion.
I have made two examples to illustrate this:
- the loving mom, who is "irresistibly" loved back by her child sooner or later.
- the Coca-Cola marketing department, which had made their product appear so "irresistible", that more than 50% of currently living human beings to drink their product at least once.
Behold
Well-known member
What you stated is that you have no choice but to believe as God is ALWAYS going to be too convincing for you to resist, given time.
That's TULIP
Same.
So that is overriding Free Will by persuasive coercion.. (Irresistible). = TUL..>.I<.....P
Duane
Member
What is a Bahá'í adher if you don't mind my asking?
Larry
Member
This will tell you about it, not all about it but a good start.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The key word of this statement you made is "CONVINCING", not "always".
It is inherent to "convince", to respect other's free will. Otherwise it would not be "convincing".
The fact that something happens always to us, given enough time, does not violate free will.
For example,
If I try to jump and fly as a bird extending my arms, I will fail to fly 100% of the times. That does not mean I don't have free will to fly as a bird.
If anyone beats or hurts my daughters, I will feel anger 100% of the time. That does not mean that I have no free will.
If my daughters show me love, I will love them back 100% of the time. That does not mean I have no free will.
So with God's sovereignty.
God will outsmart us sooner or later 100% of the time. That doesn't mean He violates our free will.
One who follows the Baha'i faith
Well all are not persauded so grace cannot be irresistible. Besides, if it is grace it cannot be irresistible, or it just becomes force
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Perhaps a better adjective would be “invincible”.
If God wants to persuade men, and does every thing to persuade men, and men end up not being persuaded , that would mean that God was defeated.
Calvin believed that God wanted to persuade only certain men, not all.
However, we know that God “is patient with us, because He does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)
No, it would not mean God was defeated.
If he desired to force a change in someone's mind he could do so.
Is a parent defeated if your child disobeys them?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Did your parents fail or succeed in raising you?
Whatever your current imperfections, I guess they succeeded.
They did it in spite of their own imperfections.
Now imagine a Father/Mother who is All Wise, All Powerful, and who loves you with supreme, eternal love.
A Father/Mother who is infinitely better than your parents in raising kids. Wouldn't it be rational to expect God will succeed?
They were not defeated - The word you used
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
That's right.
Using the word I used, your parents were not defeated: whatever your current imperfections and their imperfections as parents, they were not defeated. You are a responsible, mentally healthy man, follower of Jesus Christ.
Well, if that was achieved by your imperfect parents, imagine what a Perfect Father can achieve!
Still does nothing to show God's will always is carried out in man.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
God's will is always carried out in all creation. Certainly, his will is done through a process.
God's will was that you were born from your mother. Right? But it took nine months of pregnancy and a delicate embryological process for the will of God to be accomplished in you and your mother.
God's will in human heart to make him a citizen of his Kingdom may take many years, and will follow a process that respects the free will of His creature. But how would we even think that God's purpose will be frustrated?
CALVIN'S RATIONALE
To the problem of how evil people can defy God's Power and choose to resist him, Calvin offered this "solution": People go to hell not because God's will has failed, but because God's will, since the very start, was to let those people go to hell. So, God really doesn't feel "sorry" when He sees million of his creatures screaming in pain among the eternal flames.
At first sight (leaving aside for a while the disturbing element of eternal torture), there is some internal consistency in Calvinist rationale.
For example: God killed all dinosaurs not because something failed in his plan, but because He wanted only certain animals, not all of them, to survive and evolve. So God chose the small mammals which would survive the asteroid, and let the dinosaurs go extinct.
In the same way, Calvinist think, God's will is that you are saved, and I am not. I'm like one of those dinosaurs. If I go extinct, well... that was part of the plan.
THE ANTIDOTE TO CALVIN'S RATIONALE
The only valid argument against Calvinism, in my opinion, is to think that God WANTS to save us all, and that God's plan includes that certain people resist him FOR A WHILE, in order to accomplish certain things for others and ourselves.
That's how Paul explained the resistance of Israelites to accept Jesus. God had put on them a "veil" or produced a "hardening" of their hearts, so that Gentiles could profit. But in the end, God would save all Israel. (Romans 11:11-27)
From your perspective, you could also apply Paul's thinking about Jews and extend it to other people.
For example, you could think: "It is within God's plan that Pancho Frijoles remains with a veil in front of his eyes, a hardening in his heart, so that we can profit from debates he triggers in this Forum and we can develop more skills to defend Christianism. Once God's purpose with Pancho Frijoles has been met, God will lift the veil, soften his heart and attract Pancho to Him."
If we all thought that way, we would be kinder to each other in this Forum, thinking that whatever the mental "veils" or "hardenings" our brothers and sisters may have, God will end up lifting those veils on due time.
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civic
Well-known member
Correct
there are numerous passages showing it’s resisted often in scripture
civic
Well-known member
Gods not willing that any should perish but everyone would come to repentance.
But we know more perish than are saved on the broad road leading to destruction and never repent.
Conclusion: Gods will is not always done on earth as it is in heaven which Jesus taught us to pray for.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
In the Lord's Prayer, in the very same verse, we also pray "Thy Kingdom come"... but this does not mean that we doubt that God's Kingdom will come. Do you agree?
So, when we pray "Thy will be done" we are not suggesting that God's will may not be done.
Our prayer does not show doubt or uncertainty, but our deepest desire and commitment to participate in the fulfillment of God's will on earth.
While the Bible certainly speaks about an eternal torment in a lake of fire, the Bible certainly speaks as well of a total victory of God, in which the enemies are put under the feet of Christ. The analogy is that enemies are humiliated and turned into servants of Christ, not tortured forever. That's why God is not put under the feet of Christ. If "under the feet of Christ" meant torture, Paul wouldn't have bothered to clarify that God is not put under Christ's feet.
In the end, God emerges victorious to be "all in all". How could God be "all in all" if there is large group of million people that will remain ungodly forever (or annihilated in their ungodliness)?
Let's remember that in the analogy of conquests and conquerors, the biggest victory for the Emperor did not imply torturing his enemies, but making them their subjects, their servants. That's what Romans did in the time of Paul. Rome's glory was not base in in the annihilation or torture of the nations Rome subjected, but on their loyalty to Rome. A person who has fought the Roman army could eventually buy his Roman citizenship.
That was part of the glory of Rome.
For He will reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For He “has put all things under His feet.”But when He says, “all things are put under Him,” it is revealed that He, who has put all things under Him, is the exception. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:15-28)
