Refuting effectually caused faith

[brightfame52]

I am not talking about your testimony or mine; those being the story of our lives prior to Christ, how we came to know him, and what has happened since we believed.

We are talking about hermeneutics, interpreting scripture, understanding its message to us and the rest of the world regarding salvation and eternity and how we are to live as witnesses of Christ in this world.

Soteriology is the theological study of salvation, it is not our “testimony” per se, but our belief of what scripture teaches about how we are saved.


Doug

Im talking the word of God.

 

[TibiasDad]

It says it to me, thats what matters, my testimony isnt yours Thank God

PS. I have no doubt about your faith in Christ; I just want to be clear about that. We are brothers in Christ, and while I disagree with your understanding of soteriology, I think we are family!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Im talking the word of God.

So am I!

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

In order to savingly believe in Christ we must be first delivered from the power of darkness, which power we are all under in a unregenerate condition, in which man cannot believe the Gospel 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

However if one is elect, and Jesus has redeemed them, they are or shall be delivered from the power of satans darkness Col 1

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

There is no believing in and Gospel obeying without having been delivered from the power of darkness and being translated into the Kingdom of Jesus,

All Gods doing !

 

[brightfame52]

Also the word deliver in Col 1:13 is the greek word rhuomai:

1. to rush or draw (for oneself), i.e. rescue

1. to draw to one's self, to rescue, to deliver
2. the deliverer

So this compliments Jn 6:44;12:32


No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So both the Drawing of the Father and Son is the deliverance, the rescuing of their objects of drawing from the power of darkness , from the power of unbelief.

 

[brightfame52]

One of the reasons why Christ fulfilled His Covenant engagements in coming into the world to die for Gods elect, is so they will become rich, like rich in Faith and other Spiritual Blessings of the Covenant. 2 Cor 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
James writes of the New Covenant People James 2
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Some translate this with "to be" Hath not God chosen the poor to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom,

John Gill writes:

rich in faith; not that they were so, or were considered as such, when chosen, and so were chosen because of their faith; for then also they were, or were considered as heirs of the kingdom, which would be monstrously absurd; and yet there is as much reason, from the text, for the one, as for the other; but the sense is, that they were chosen "to be rich in faith"; and so the Syriac version supplies in the next clause, "that they might be heirs"; which if it had been placed before this clause also, would have been right; election to grace is signified in the one, and election to glory in the other: men are chosen, not because they do believe, or shall believe, but that they might believe; and which faith they have in consequence of election; and which when they have, they are rich: faith is a rich precious grace itself; it is a part of the riches of grace, and is more worth than thousands of gold and silver; and it is the means of receiving and enjoying much riches, as Christ the pearl of great price himself, and all spiritual blessings along with him; such as the rich robe of his righteousness, full pardon of sin, which is according to the riches of his grace, and adoption, which makes men heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, and even the eternal inheritance itself, both the promise of it, and a right unto it; all which are said to be received by faith; and therefore believers, how poor soever they may be, to this world's goods, are truly rich men:

and heirs of the kingdom;

This also shows James believed in Election !

 

[brightfame52]

Paul is an example of how someone becomes a believer in Christ by the effectual working power of Grace, for we believe through grace Eph 3:7

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power".

And he says later in 1 Tim he was an pattern of them that shall believe in Christ 1 Tim 1 16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Pauls ignorance and unbelief succumbed to Gods Grace and Mercy towards him 1 Tim 1 13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Christ came to save sinners from ignorance, unbelief, Paul is a biblical testimony, and so is all true believers.

 

[TomL]

Paul is an example of how someone becomes a believer in Christ by the effectual working power of Grace, for we believe through grace Eph 3:7

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power".

And he says later in 1 Tim he was an pattern of them that shall believe in Christ 1 Tim 1 16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Pauls ignorance and unbelief succumbed to Gods Grace and Mercy towards him 1 Tim 1 13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Christ came to save sinners from ignorance, unbelief, Paul is a biblical testimony, and so is all true believers.

Yes, he did.

And all who believe in him will be saved because of the grace that is available through the death of Christ and the word that extolls him.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, he did.

And all who believe in him will be saved because of the grace that is available through the death of Christ and the word that extolls him.

He was made a believer by Grace as is all true believers. He was a believer by the Grace of God 1 Cor 15:10

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

BTW here is irresistible Grace, Grace made him a believer. In Eph 3:7 the word made is a creation word, to generate, its the word ginomai :

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

ghin'-om-ahee; a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being

Technically Grace made him into a believing servant of Christ, and he had no choice in it. Thats the work of Sovereign Grace of God

 

[TibiasDad]

Paul is an example of how someone becomes a believer in Christ by the effectual working power of Grace, for we believe through grace Eph 3:7

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power".

The gift of ministry is distinct from the gift of salvation. Not all are called into Apostleship, not all are call to be teachers, or pastors or evangelists. All of these are gracious gifts.

And he says later in 1 Tim he was an pattern of them that shall believe in Christ 1 Tim 1 16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul is not the pattern, Jesus Christ showing mercy and patience to Paul is the pattern. Christ is the pattern maker of which Paul is an example.

Pauls ignorance and unbelief succumbed to Gods Grace and Mercy towards him 1 Tim 1 13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Christ came to save sinners from ignorance, unbelief, Paul is a biblical testimony, and so is all true believers.

And your point is? Nobody disagrees with this!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Technically Grace made him into a believing servant of Christ, and he had no choice in it. Thats the work of Sovereign Grace of God

Technically, we didn’t have to believe is God’s grace, which is the catalyst for Grace to be applied! “That whoever believes…”

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

The gift of ministry is distinct from the gift of salvation.

Not in Paul's case, he was made a believer and minister all at one time. And all believers at salvation become Christs servants 2 Cor 5:14-15

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Sure there will be growth and development, but upon conversion we are servants to some degree

 

[brightfame52]

Technically, we didn’t have to believe is God’s grace, which is the catalyst for Grace to be applied! “That whoever believes…”

Doug

Grace makes us believers, just like saul into Paul. A believer .Christian is Gods Creation He made Isa 43:7

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

One has no choice in their creation.

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad


Not in Paul's case, he was made a believer and minister all at one time. And all believers at salvation become Christs servants 2 Cor 5:14-15

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Sure there will be growth and development, but upon conversion we are servants to some degree

1Cor 12:27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

 

[brightfame52]

1Cor 12:27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

I see not how this overturns that Sovereign Grace makes believers. John Gill on Isa 43:7

Even everyone that is called by my name,.... That is called by the name of God, a son or daughter of his; or by the name of Christ, a Christian; whoever belongs to the Lord, whom he calls by his name; and who, being called by his grace, call upon his name, make a profession of his name, and serve and worship him:
for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, yea, I have made him; all which is expressive of the power and grace of God, in the regeneration and conversion of his people; which is a creation, a formation, a making them for himself, for the glory of his grace, and to show forth his praise; and therefore he will gather them in, and bring them into a body together, into a church state, that this end may be answered.https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/43-7.htm

 

[TomL]

He was made a believer by Grace as is all true believers. He was a believer by the Grace of God 1 Cor 15:10

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

BTW here is irresistible Grace, Grace made him a believer. In Eph 3:7 the word made is a creation word, to generate, its the word ginomai :

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

ghin'-om-ahee; a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being

Technically Grace made him into a believing servant of Christ, and he had no choice in it. Thats the work of Sovereign Grace of God

Grace not determinism, made Paul what he was.

Grace is not a deterministic event.

Grace is resistible


To the Galations (2:21), Paul wrote, "I do not frustrate the grace of God" (by seeking righteousness through the works of the law rather than through faith in Christ). To the Corinthians he wrote (II: 6: 1), "We then, as workers together with God, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain" (by failing to go on with God in the unfolding of His redemptive purpose for them, cf. chap. 67)42 With respect to Calvin's hypothesis of irresistible grace, it is noteworthy that Hebrews 10:29 warns against "doing despite to the Spirit of grace." That the designation "Spirit of grace" appears in the context of Hebrews 10:19-12:29, the longest of the five hortatory sections of the Epistle to the Hebrews which treat the peril of apostasy with such profound urgency, strongly forbids any assumption of the irresistibility of grace. "My spirit shall not always strive with man," declared God in the days of Noah (Gen. 6:3). If the men of Noah's generation were foreordained to damnation, as Calvin believed, in what sense did the Spirit strive with them, since they were but fulfilling their foreordained role in refusing the testimony of Noah? If no man, either elect or reprobate, can resist the will of God, against whom or what is the Spirit striving when He "strives with man"? If there is in man no faculty of decision which God takes into account, any striving of the Spirit that fails to bring man to submission proves God incapable of performance. Any "striving" not intended to eventuate in the submission of man would be a farce and prove God hopelessly insincere. If decision rests with God alone, any striving at all is totally superfluous. "You always resist the Holy Spirit!" was Stephen's charge against his persecutors (Acts 7:51). If Calvin's hypothesis of irresistible grace were true, how could this be? If they were reprobates by eternal decree of God, in what sense could they be resisting the Holy Spirit by fulfilling their foreordained role in opposing the Gospel? Only as potential objects of election could it be possible for them to resist the Holy Spirit; and the record stands that they did indeed resist the Spirit of Grace. The doctrine of the irresistibility of grace is a theological fiction.

Matthew 23:37–38 (LEB) — 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How many times I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her young together under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 Behold, your house has been left to you desolate!



No scripture will state what you post

Technically Grace made him into a believing servant of Christ, and he had no choice in it.

Grace may be resisted, fallen short of, or given in vain.

Hebrews 12:15 (LEB) — 15 Take care that no one falls short of the grace of God; that no one growing up like a root of bitterness causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;

Men can fall short of grace so they can fail to obtain that which the given grace is able to provide

Acts 7:51 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you!

The Spirit of grace is resisted

2 Corinthians 6:1 (LEB) — 1 Now because we are fellow workers, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

Grace received in vain is not irresistible.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Grace not determinism, made Paul what he was.

Same thing. God determined to save him by His Effectual Powerful Grace

Read Eph 3:7

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Grace makes alive Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[TibiasDad]

I see not how this overturns that Sovereign Grace makes believers.

It wasn’t intended for that purpose! It was intended to show the distinction of Paul’s being made an Apostle. I believe we agree that each of us has a role to play and the gifts to accomplish that role.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

It wasn’t intended for that purpose! It was intended to show the distinction of Paul’s being made an Apostle. I believe we agree that each of us has a role to play and the gifts to accomplish that role.

Doug

I know Paul was made an Apostle, same time he was made a believer

 

[TibiasDad]

I know Paul was made an Apostle, same time he was made a believer

Logically, he was saved first and then called. But he did not know that at that time. Ananias only healed his eyesight and prayed for the Holy Spirit to fill Paul.

Acts 9:
10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

13“Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Yes, God had plans for him, but that did not transpire right away.

Doug