Love and force are antitheticalCorrectthere are numerous passages showing it’s resisted often in scripture
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Exactly
MTMattie
Active member
Sorry @TomL , I have to toss this in here, as I just started reading this thread.
Calvin is the one who stated... and it is also in the Westminster confession of faith....
"predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death"
And the above verses are among some that Calvenists use to confirm their beliefs.
( “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart,)
( "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light)
( "but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive)
(" lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”)
I am not a Calvinist, though I used to quasi- believe it. I believe predestination was/is for those specifically tapped for a specific job.
I am a free will believer. ( case for that could be made using the Acts 28:27 you posted above... but in another thread and another time)
So why are you quoting him?
However you miss the point
If man is unable to believe apart from being unconditionally predestined and enabled to believe what need is there to blind someone so they will not believe
The fact such an action is needed shows the doctrine is not true
MTMattie
Active member
Because people hop onto the predestined belief, usually through their church and walk their lives believing that
predestination is true.
Most never hear the part where Calvin says that God will block the reprobates from ever getting salvation.
These people are the very same that preach God is love, and all is okay because they know where their eternity will be.
They need to know that God will deliberately block some from ever being saved.... the only possible out is Acts 28:27 where it is said
For the heart of this people has become dull,
And with their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes;
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.” ’
This was directed to the Jews... but at the same time it also says they might, return, and I would heal them.= free will
predestination is true.
Most never hear the part where Calvin says that God will block the reprobates from ever getting salvation.
These people are the very same that preach God is love, and all is okay because they know where their eternity will be.
They need to know that God will deliberately block some from ever being saved.... the only possible out is Acts 28:27 where it is said
For the heart of this people has become dull,
And with their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes;
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.” ’
This was directed to the Jews... but at the same time it also says they might, return, and I would heal them.= free will
civic
Well-known member
It’s the oxymoron known as Calvinism and the dead.
John 12:40 shows Calvinism is an error.
It should be noted
The heart of these people became that way over time, they were not born in that condition as Calvinism teaches
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Spirit of God is the cause of regeneration. Faith is the effect, the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22).
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
The word fruit karpos:
that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result
So Faith is the work of the Spirit in the regenerated. or Faith is an effect of the Spirit.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
The word fruit karpos:
that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result
- work, act, deed
- advantage, profit, utility
So Faith is the work of the Spirit in the regenerated. or Faith is an effect of the Spirit.
Johann
Well-known member
The Spirit of God as the Cause of Regeneration
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration, which refers to the spiritual rebirth or new birth that believers experience when they come to faith in Christ.
John 3:5-6: "Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.’"
Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."
These verses make it clear that regeneration (the new birth) is accomplished by the Holy Spirit. So, in this sense, the Spirit is the cause of regeneration.
2. Faith as the Effect
It’s accurate to say that faith is the response to the regeneration brought about by the Spirit, but it's important to recognize that faith itself is a gift from God, not simply the result of regeneration.
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
So, while faith follows regeneration, it's important to note that faith is also a gift from God, not just a passive effect.
3. "Fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22)
It’s accurate to say that the "fruit of the Spirit" is the outworking of the Spirit's presence in a believer's life, including faith, but Galatians 5:22 specifically lists the fruit of the Spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Galatians 5:22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
Faith is part of the fruit of the Spirit, but it’s not the same as the faith that saves or the initial faith by which one is regenerated. Rather, it refers to faithfulness or steadfastness in the Christian life, which is the result of the Spirit's work in the believer.
"The Spirit of God is the cause of regeneration, and faith is both a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9) and part of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22), reflecting the work of the Spirit in the believer’s life."
J.
MTMattie
Active member
Can you not see that once the act of salvation is completed, there is no need for the act of faith to begin.
Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.
Similar: belief
You have been taught. You have heard. You have read. You have debated. You have argued this for how many years, or possibly decades with those of us who came to a faith... a belief... of what Christ Jesus did for us... and wanted that completion... That fullness that only one gets from the indwelling of the spirit... Dunked or not.... because our minds accepted what we heard.
Do I have faith that I will be saved? NO. And neither should you by this point.
Then what is my faith for?
Nope The Spirit regenerates those with faith
Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life
The following verses show faith precedes life
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -
One is made a child of God through faith
John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.
We are raised spiritually through faith
Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
it is through faith we are saved
EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
.
Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
which requires both faith and repentance
Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
brightfame52
Well-known member
They cant come to faith without the Spirit effecting it.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is given with Salvation by Grace.
MTMattie
Active member
Biblical verse that states this, please.
You seem to ignore all counter verses to this belief that come from the bible. WHERE is it written?
civic
Well-known member
MTMattie
Active member
That is what makes debating and arguing so difficult. I could almost guarantee that only the first one or two were read, lest the idea that he might be wrong flashed into his mind .
There have been certain verses I , myself , have read that could be interpreted either way.... and if he is relying on those... well the merry-go-round is still in motion.
BTW. Past time for editing but I misspoke in 1331 above.
My error.. I said.......
Do I have faith that I will be saved? NO. And neither should you by this point.
Then what is my faith for?
I mistyped and meant to say
Do I have faith that I will be saved? YES.
Else Then what is my faith for?
I have no idea what I was thinking
other then excessive tiredness... (I know... no excuse)... (Should be able to edit longer then just a few minutes)
civic
Well-known member
@Administrator is there a setting so there can be a longer time to edit a post. Maybe 30 minutes ?
Yes there is. I'll set it up.
