Refuting effectually caused faith

[TomL]

If faith is effectually, irresistibly caused by God then verses would make no sense

John 12:40 —ESV

“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””



why would God blind those unable to see or hear the truth unless he effectually, sovereignty, irresistibly causes them to



why would the god of this world need to blind men



2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV

“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

If faith cannot be had unless God effectually, sovereignty, irresistibly installs it

How could they see and hear if they had not hardened themselves



Acts 28:27 —ESV

“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”

if having faith depends on God effectually, sovereignty, irresistibly causing it

Why would Christ hide truth in parables?



Mark 4:11–12 —ESV

“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,

so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””

if faith could only be had if God effectually, sovereignty, irresistibly causes it

There is something wrong with the Calvinist's understanding of how faith is brought about.

 

[Diserner]

Your logic boils down to "if God uses means to an end, than the means make no sense."

I don't really think this one quite works.

 

[Wilber]

Your logic boils down to "if God uses means to an end, than the means make no sense."

I don't really think this one quite works.

Trust me it works. You just need to Understand we exist as meridians. To follow the story is to become one with it. Consciousness consists of psionic wave oscillations of quantum energy. “Quantum” means a summoning of the non-local.

See what you started

 

[Diserner]

Trust me it works. You just need to Understand we exist as meridians. To follow the story is to become one with it. Consciousness consists of psionic wave oscillations of quantum energy. “Quantum” means a summoning of the non-local.

Compatibilism in a nutshell right there.

 

[TomL]

Your logic boils down to "if God uses means to an end, than the means make no sense."

I don't really think this one quite works.

No

Calvinism holds man is not able to believe unless God effectually causes him to believe

If that is the case, there is no need to hide truth or blind man.

 

[Wilber]

No

Calvinism holds man is not able to believe unless God effectually causes him to believe

If that is the case, there is no need to hide truth or blind man.

Sorry Tom I wasn't trying to mess up your thread. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

[Diserner]

No

Calvinism holds man is not able to believe unless God effectually causes him to believe

If that is the case, there is no need to hide truth or blind man.

God doesn't have "need" of anything at all.

He doesn't "need" means, but he uses them.

So you need to understand a Calvinist will just say these are ordained means to an ordained end.

 

[Rockson]

So you need to understand a Calvinist will just say these are ordained means to an ordained end.

Seems to me I'd agree with Tom on this.

You wouldn't need an ordained means if the blinding was automictic with out a need to put it on them.

 

[Diserner]

Seems to me I'd agree with Tom on this.

You wouldn't need an ordained means if the blinding was automictic with out a need to put it on them.

Again, you are throwing the word "need" in there.

God does not "need" to use any means.

 

[Rockson]

Again, you are throwing the word "need" in there.

God does not "need" to use any means.

But dizerner you said "So you need to understand a Calvinist will just say these are ordained means to an ordained end."

So again you don't need an ordained means there would be no need to have it.

 

[Diserner]

So again you don't need an ordained means there would be no need to have it.

Have you ever thought about the fact that God doesn't "need" angels to do things for him?

Why the heck did he make angels to be his servants and do all this stuff, that he himself can do effortlessly?

You are putting to much on the "need" part, in the argument, because under their system, it's just about what is ordained.

 

[Rockson]

Have you ever thought about the fact that God doesn't "need" angels to do things for him?

Let's back up here and look at what we're talking about . Angels carry out assignments. They have a purpose. to create or produce an end result. What end result needs to be produced if we follow Tom's logical argument.? They can't respond if Calvinism were true. They're the ones claiming mankind's state is totally incapable of responding. Angels would produce something in how you're using it. Noting needs TO BE produced if Calvinism were true.....therefore there would be no need to blind them. God Bless.

 

[civic]

Let's back up here and look at what we're talking about . Angels carry out assignments. They have a purpose. to create or produce an end result. What end result needs to be produced if we follow Tom's logical argument.? They can't respond if Calvinism were true. They're the ones claiming mankind's state is totally incapable of responding. Angels would produce something in how you're using it. Noting needs TO BE produced if Calvinism were true.....therefore there would be no need to blind them. God Bless.

Ditto

 

[TomL]

God doesn't have "need" of anything at all.

He doesn't "need" means, but he uses them.

So you need to understand a Calvinist will just say these are ordained means to an ordained end.

No these were means used to prevent an end your doctrine says his does not possess.

 

[TomL]

Sorry Tom I wasn't trying to mess up your thread. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.

No problem

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is the Gift of God the fruit of the Spirit, so it is caused by the Spirit! 1 Pet 1:22

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

 

[TomL]

Faith is the Gift of God the fruit of the Spirit, so it is caused by the Spirit! 1 Pet 1:22

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Newsflash one must first believe before receiving the spirit

Galatians 3:2 (ESV) — 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (ESV) — 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Galatians 3:14 (ESV) — 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16–17 (ESV) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

the fruit of the spirit is for those who are indwelt with the spirit

 

[civic]

Newsflash one must first believe before receiving the spirit

Galatians 3:2 (ESV) — 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (ESV) — 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Galatians 3:14 (ESV) — 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16–17 (ESV) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

the fruit of the spirit is for those who are indwelt with the spirit

plus the verse that he quoted in Peter doesn't even mention faith.

 

[TomL]

plus the verse that he quoted in Peter doesn't even mention faith.

You got to put on the Calvinist lens.

 

[brightfame52]

Newsflash one must first believe before receiving the spirit

Galatians 3:2 (ESV) — 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (ESV) — 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Galatians 3:14 (ESV) — 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16–17 (ESV) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

the fruit of the spirit is for those who are indwelt with the spirit

Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22; 1 Pet 1:22