Refuting effectually caused faith

[brightfame52]

If that were true, you should have been able to address this

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/refuting-effectually-caused-faith.1295/post-82718

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

 

[Horatius]

You seemed certain to me. Didn't you accept Hebrews 2:10 as evident of just that? Have you changed your position now?

I'm glad you know that faith grows. Some have more than others. Is that because of God or man?

Lets carry this through to its completion.

Ultimately our faith grows because of God, but we do have our part to play in growing our Faith. Simply put, to grow in faith means to grow spiritually. It is to mature in both knowledge of God and in godly living; ultimately, it is to become more like Christ. The same way we grow from infant to mature adult, a Christian's life is designed to grow spiritually from baby to mature Christian.

"Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good." 1 Peter 2:2-3

Growing in faith requires both time and effort. God ultimately causes the growth, yet He expects us to follow His ways to grow, and become mature followers of Jesus.

Show Me Your Ways

 

[Johann]

Ultimately our faith grows because of God, but we do have our part to play in growing our Faith. Simply put, to grow in faith means to grow spiritually. It is to mature in both knowledge of God and in godly living; ultimately, it is to become more like Christ. The same way we grow from infant to mature adult, a Christian's life is designed to grow spiritually from baby to mature Christian.

"Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good." 1 Peter 2:2-3

Growing in faith requires both time and effort. God ultimately causes the growth, yet He expects us to follow His ways to grow, and become mature followers of Jesus.

Show Me Your Ways

Well said.

 

[synergy]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

Boring...

 

[praise_yeshua]

Ultimately our faith grows because of God, but we do have our part to play in growing our Faith. Simply put, to grow in faith means to grow spiritually. It is to mature in both knowledge of God and in godly living; ultimately, it is to become more like Christ. The same way we grow from infant to mature adult, a Christian's life is designed to grow spiritually from baby to mature Christian.

"Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good." 1 Peter 2:2-3

Growing in faith requires both time and effort. God ultimately causes the growth, yet He expects us to follow His ways to grow, and become mature followers of Jesus.

Show Me Your Ways

I can agree with much of what you have stated. However,

1. There are primarily two sources for the origins of our faith. Not just God.

Faith would not exist apart from the power of God in organizing an environment that fosters the possibility of faith. (God)
Faith does not exist in us apart from another person passing their faith on to us. Whether it be family or whether it be those preaching the faith of the Gospel, mankind certainly passes their faith to others that are part of the human race.

Evidence for these facts are found throughout the Scriptures.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The origins of Timothy's faith in his family

2Ti_1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

2. Faith grows because of our experience.

As you mentioned we must become little children in faith. Children are at the whim of their upbringing. They follow not only what they are taught but inherit the errors associated with their teachers. We are descendents of sinful people who both originate our faith but also "taint" our faith with their own. We become no greater than the ones who teach us. In fact, most of the time, we let others believe for us. Such has never fully satisfied God. Never.

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Me must willing admit that we are not what God wants us to be in faith. If such were true, this world would be different. What goes on around us is proof of our failures in faith.

Notice how experience "GROWS" our faith.

If we have the entirety of the very mind of God, then why the need for experiencing God?

Though we get our faith from others, it must ultimate become OUR FAITH to please God. We must agree with God of our own volition. We see God for who He is ourselves.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Our faith is endlessly dependent upon our own acceptance of God's ways.

 

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

Salvation (eternal life) is the gift of God

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

 

[brightfame52]

Boring...

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation (eternal life) is the gift of God

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

Exactly That. It. These words refer back to a noun. "Are Saved" (literally "are having been saved") is not a noun. Faith is a noun.

 

[civic]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

Salvation is not of yourselves

Next

 

[Johann]

Exactly That. It. These words refer back to a noun. "Are Saved" (literally "are having been saved") is not a noun. Faith is a noun.

• "Grace" (χάριτι, chariti) is a noun in the dative case, indicating the means or instrumentality by which salvation is received.
• "Saved" (σεσῳσμένοι, sesōsmenoi) is a verb in the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with ongoing results. It is in the nominative case, agreeing with the subject "ye."
• "Faith" (πίστεως, pisteōs) is a noun in the genitive case, indicating the means or channel through which salvation is appropriated.
• "Yourselves" (ὑμῶν, hymōn) is a pronoun in the genitive case, indicating possession and emphasizing that salvation is not the result of human effort.
• "Gift" (δώρον, dōron) is a noun in the nominative case, serving as the predicate nominative and indicating that salvation is something freely given by God.
• "Works" (ἔργων, ergōn) is a noun in the genitive case, contrasting with grace and faith and emphasizing that salvation is not earned through human effort.

Ephesians 2:8-9 emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, received by grace through faith. It is not the result of human works or effort but is freely given by God to those who believe. This passage highlights the central role of God's grace and the importance of faith in appropriating salvation, while also emphasizing the contrast between God's gift and human works.

How are you @The Rogue Tomato?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

• "Grace" (χάριτι, chariti) is a noun in the dative case, indicating the means or instrumentality by which salvation is received.
• "Saved" (σεσῳσμένοι, sesōsmenoi) is a verb in the perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with ongoing results. It is in the nominative case, agreeing with the subject "ye."
• "Faith" (πίστεως, pisteōs) is a noun in the genitive case, indicating the means or channel through which salvation is appropriated.
• "Yourselves" (ὑμῶν, hymōn) is a pronoun in the genitive case, indicating possession and emphasizing that salvation is not the result of human effort.
• "Gift" (δώρον, dōron) is a noun in the nominative case, serving as the predicate nominative and indicating that salvation is something freely given by God.
• "Works" (ἔργων, ergōn) is a noun in the genitive case, contrasting with grace and faith and emphasizing that salvation is not earned through human effort.

Ephesians 2:8-9 emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, received by grace through faith. It is not the result of human works or effort but is freely given by God to those who believe. This passage highlights the central role of God's grace and the importance of faith in appropriating salvation, while also emphasizing the contrast between God's gift and human works.

How are you @The Rogue Tomato?

Well, it can't be "grace" or "gift" since that would be redundant and silly.

I'm fine, how are you?

Oh, and happy Mother's Day to all, even if you're not a mother.

 

[Horatius]

I can agree with much of what you have stated. However,

1. There are primarily two sources for the origins of our faith. Not just God.

Faith would not exist apart from the power of God in organizing an environment that fosters the possibility of faith. (God)
Faith does not exist in us apart from another person passing their faith on to us. Whether it be family or whether it be those preaching the faith of the Gospel, mankind certainly passes their faith to others that are part of the human race.

Evidence for these facts are found throughout the Scriptures.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The origins of Timothy's faith in his family

2Ti_1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

2. Faith grows because of our experience.

As you mentioned we must become little children in faith. Children are at the whim of their upbringing. They follow not only what they are taught but inherit the errors associated with their teachers. We are descendents of sinful people who both originate our faith but also "taint" our faith with their own. We become no greater than the ones who teach us. In fact, most of the time, we let others believe for us. Such has never fully satisfied God. Never.

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Me must willing admit that we are not what God wants us to be in faith. If such were true, this world would be different. What goes on around us is proof of our failures in faith.

Notice how experience "GROWS" our faith.

If we have the entirety of the very mind of God, then why the need for experiencing God?

Though we get our faith from others, it must ultimate become OUR FAITH to please God. We must agree with God of our own volition. We see God for who He is ourselves.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Our faith is endlessly dependent upon our own acceptance of God's ways.

Well I totally agree with that. We have faith as Christians that we will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven and that all the things that we've read in the bible about heaven are true. When we reach our twilight years and we have to learn new survivor skills in order to function rather than becoming depressed we keep our joy because our futures is looking mighty bright.

Think for a minute if you had no faith in Jesus and you were in that same situation but without hope. Believing that when you die that's it. No afterlife. No new body, just nothingness.

I'm so glad that we as Christians have faith and hope in heaven our real home.

 

[Johann]

Well, it can't be "grace" or "gift" since that would be redundant and silly.

I'm fine, how are you?

Oh, and happy Mother's Day to all, even if you're not a mother.

Well, it can't be "grace" or "gift" since that would be redundant and silly.

I'm fine, how are you?

Oh, and happy Mother's Day to all, even if you're not a mother.

Well-is grace and faith not a dorean? The Dative explains it very well--

"For" (γὰρ, gar): This conjunction indicates that what follows provides a reason or explanation for what has been previously stated. In this case, it connects the discussion of salvation by grace to the preceding verses (Ephesians 2:1-7), which describe humanity's condition of sinfulness and God's mercy and love in offering salvation.

"By grace" (χάριτί, chariti): "Grace" is a noun in the dative case, indicating the means or instrumentality by which salvation is received. It emphasizes that salvation is undeserved favor from God, freely given to believers.

"You have been saved" (ἐστεσώσεσθε, estesōsesthe): "You have been saved" is a verb in the perfect passive tense, indicating a past completed action with ongoing results. It signifies that believers have experienced salvation as a result of God's grace. The passive voice emphasizes that salvation is received rather than achieved through human effort.
"Through faith"

"Through" (διὰ, dia): This preposition indicates the channel or means through which salvation is received. In this case, it emphasizes faith as the conduit through which God's grace brings salvation to believers.

"Faith" (πίστεως, pisteōs): "Faith" is a noun in the genitive case, indicating the relationship between faith and salvation. It refers to trust or reliance on God's promises, particularly in the context of believing in Jesus Christ as Savior.

"And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

"And that not of yourselves" (καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν): This phrase emphasizes that salvation is not the result of human effort or merit. "That" (τοῦτο) refers back to the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith, indicating that it is not of human origin.

"It is the gift of God" (θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον): "It" (τὸ δῶρον) is the subject of the verb "is" (ἐστιν) and refers to salvation.

This phrase underscores that salvation is a gift bestowed by God, emphasizing its undeserved nature and highlighting God's grace as the source of salvation.


Ephesians 2:8 emphasizes that salvation is entirely a result of God's grace, received through faith in Jesus Christ. Believers are saved not by their own merit or effort but by God's unmerited favor, which is freely given as a gift. This verse underscores the foundational principles of salvation: grace, faith, and God's sovereign initiative in bringing about salvation for humanity.

Other than that-Happy Mother's day.
Keep your chin up, set your face like flint and stay strong in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

Nope

Salvation is the gift

Salvation (eternal life) is the gift of God

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

 

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

So why is it even Calvin does not agree with you



But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

and the Calvinist Barnes

And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1

1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.

and this Calvinist

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

Finally

if faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Exactly That. It. These words refer back to a noun. "Are Saved" (literally "are having been saved") is not a noun. Faith is a noun.

Eph 2:8 shows everything about "being saved by grace through faith" is the gift of God, all by grace, and nothing of it is of ourselves. Then you have plain statements showing that we believe because of Grace Acts 18:27Grace is not of ourselves

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is not of yourselves

Next

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

 

[brightfame52]

Nope

Salvation is the gift

Salvation (eternal life) is the gift of God

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So why is it even Calvin does not agree with you

If Billy Graham (a notorious free-willer) endorsed TULIP, would you care? Neither do we care what Calvin says.