Refuting effectually caused faith

[Johann]

Even though faith and good works are not exactly the same thing still there is an undeniable strong relationship between the 2 of them. Faith without works is dead (James 2:14).

So it is stalemate? Although I concur with the Scriptures you have given me.

James looks upon works as proof of faith, not as means of salvation (A. T. Robertson).

This is a question preceded in Greek by mē, assuming a negative answer (see CB). Thus, that kind of faith which produces no works, or is unaccompanied by works, does not save. So also that kind of faith which will not receive others (Jas_2:2-3; +**Rom_15:7). But genuine faith which results in regenerative change (Tit_3:5) produces the fruit of the Spirit (Gal_5:22-23), and most certainly does save (Rom_8:4-14). Jas_2:17, Mat_7:20, Mar_16:16, Luk_3:8; Luk_7:50, +*Act_16:31, Rom_4:2, +*1Co_15:2, **Eph_2:8-10.
faith. or, that faith. The article here has almost the original demonstrative force. James means the kind of faith that rests on mere assertion without works to prove it (A. T. Robertson). Jas_3:15.
save. +*Jas_1:21-25; Jas_4:12; *Jas_5:15; *Jas_5:20.

Stay blessed in Christ.

 

[synergy]

So it is stalemate? Although I concur with the Scriptures you have given me.

James looks upon works as proof of faith, not as means of salvation (A. T. Robertson).

Incorrect. We are justified by good works and not by faith alone. See James 2:24. James makes this very clear.

This is a question preceded in Greek by mē, assuming a negative answer (see CB). Thus, that kind of faith which produces no works, or is unaccompanied by works, does not save. So also that kind of faith which will not receive others (Jas_2:2-3; +**Rom_15:7). But genuine faith which results in regenerative change (Tit_3:5) produces the fruit of the Spirit (Gal_5:22-23), and most certainly does save (Rom_8:4-14). Jas_2:17, Mat_7:20, Mar_16:16, Luk_3:8; Luk_7:50, +*Act_16:31, Rom_4:2, +*1Co_15:2, **Eph_2:8-10.
faith. or, that faith. The article here has almost the original demonstrative force. James means the kind of faith that rests on mere assertion without works to prove it (A. T. Robertson). Jas_3:15.
save. +*Jas_1:21-25; Jas_4:12; *Jas_5:15; *Jas_5:20.

How many "kinds of faith" are there? When is faith ever mentioned in the plural sense?

Stay blessed in Christ.

You too my friend.

 

[Johann]

Incorrect. We are justified by good works and not by faith alone. See James 2:24. James makes this clear.

I think AT Robertson agrees with you.

How many "kinds of faith" are there? When is faith ever mentioned n the plural sense?

Where did I mention faith is plural?

You too my friend.

Shalom brother.

 

[synergy]

I think AT Robertson agrees with you.

As long as he agrees with the Bible, which I quoted, then it's all good.

Where did I mention faith is plural?

Ok, only one type of faith, either alive because of good works or dead because of no good works.

Shalom brother.

Peace to you too.

 

[Johann]

As long as he agrees with the Bible, which I quoted, then it's all good.

Ok, only one type of faith, either alive because of good works or dead because of no good works.

Peace to you too.

We should play a game of chess one day-God willing.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

What about "your work of faith" in 1 Th 1:3? Now that really clears things up!

1 Th 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

Again, operative difference: Good works of faith after they are saved.

 

[synergy]

I was raised Greek Orthodox. I humbly request that you do not assume I am lying. I never "believed" in the Greek Orthodox - I rejected it all and was an atheist.

You must reject Christology and Trinitarianism if you "reject it all". Are you a Trinitarian? Do you believe in the Trinity?

But I was dragged to Greek Orthodox church and the various Sunday schools. I hated church services, the horrible singing of the Greek cantor, the standing, the kneeling, the sitting up and down up and down.

Since you are PreDeterminist, how can you hate that which God predetermined you to do?

 

[civic]

Since you are PreDeterminist, how can you hate that which God predetermined you to do?

The million dollar question that reveals their contradictory beliefs.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You must reject Christology and Trinitarianism if you "reject it all". Are you a Trinitarian? Do you believe in the Trinity?

Since you are PreDeterminist, how can you hate that which God predetermined you to do?

Operative word: WAS -- was an atheist.
Operative word: HATED -- past tense.

 

[synergy]

Operative word: WAS -- was an atheist.
Operative word: HATED -- past tense.

So now you love Greek/Eastern Orthodoxy?

You conveniently skipped over my question: Since you are PreDeterminist, how can you hate that which God predetermined you to do?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So now you love Greek/Eastern Orthodoxy?

You conveniently skipped over my question: Since you are PreDeterminist, how can you hate that which God predetermined you to do?

Does "past tense" mean anything to you?

 

[synergy]

Does "past tense" mean anything to you?

We established the past. I'm now asking about the present. Does "present tense" mean anything to you?

You continue to conveniently skip over my question: Since you are PreDeterminist, how can you hate that which God predetermined you to do?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

We established the past. I'm now asking about the present. Does "present tense" mean anything to you?

You continue to conveniently skip over my question: Since you are PreDeterminist, how can you hate that which God predetermined you to do?

You took "hated" and then asked how I can NOW hate...etc. You're not asking serious questions. You're just trying to antagonize. Done, carry on without me.

 

[synergy]

You took "hated" and then asked how I can NOW hate...etc. You're not asking serious questions. You're just trying to antagonize. Done, carry on without me.

When you make public statement, don't be surprised that you're asked questions by the public. That doesn't mean you have to answer them in any great detail. But skipping over them like you continue to do with my predeterminist question speaks volumes about your contradictory theology.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

When you make public statement, don't be surprised that you're asked questions by the public. That doesn't mean you have to answer them in any great detail. But skipping over them like you continue to do with my predeterminist question speaks volumes about your contradictory theology.

When you ask antagonistic questions that really have no basis in the post to which you're responding, don't be surprised when you get ignored.

 

[TomL]

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Arminians don't deny that Jesus is the author of faith.

Ever heard of

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

None of these verses says anything about God granting faith to some and deny it to others.

No scriptures do. It is a Calvinist invention

 

[TomL]

The operative difference is "once we are saved". We don't work to be saved. Jesus is the AUTHOR of our faith and of our salvation. (Hebrews 2:10)

There is no "our" in the Greek text

Hebrews 12:2 (LSB) — 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2 (NIV) — 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2 (UASV) — 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 looking only at Jesus, the originator and perfecter of the faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2 (LEB) — 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the originator and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2 (ISV) — 2 looking off to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[TomL]

Add to this the fact that Jesus is the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith? If faith is a work we do, then how is Jesus the author of it?

You already know the pronoun our is not a part of the Greek text. You have to assume it and then assume an interpretation with it included as there are other possibilities even with the added word.

Assumptions based upon assumptions is not how one formulates biblical doctrine

 

[brightfame52]

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/refuting-effectually-caused-faith.1295/post-82718

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

 

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

If that were true, you should have been able to address this

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/refuting-effectually-caused-faith.1295/post-82718