The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Add to this the fact that Jesus is the AUTHOR and finisher of our faith? If faith is a work we do, then how is Jesus the author of it?
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Horatius
Member
How does this one fit in?
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.” Philippians 2:12–13
I don't think we do good works in order to get saved but once we are saved we do good works according to His purpose.
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.” Philippians 2:12–13
I don't think we do good works in order to get saved but once we are saved we do good works according to His purpose.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The operative difference is "once we are saved". We don't work to be saved. Jesus is the AUTHOR of our faith and of our salvation. (Hebrews 2:10)
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Amen.
Here the neuter touto takes an antecedent according to sense
The sense of the passage is salvation
There is no problem defining salvation as being saved by grace through faith, but there is but one gift
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Scripture saying there is but one gift?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its clear as the noon day sun
gift is singular in the verse
Johann
Well-known member
In the context of Christian theology, faith is often distinguished from works. While faith is crucial for salvation, it is not considered a "work" in the sense of earning salvation through human effort.
Here's why:
- Faith as Trust: Faith, in the Christian sense, is primarily about trust and reliance on God. It involves believing in God's promises and entrusting oneself to His grace and mercy. It's not about performing deeds to earn salvation but rather about placing one's trust in God's provision for salvation through Jesus Christ.
- Grace and Gift: The New Testament emphasizes that salvation is a gift of God's grace, not something earned through works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Faith is portrayed as the means by which individuals receive this gift, but faith itself is also described as a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). This underscores the idea that faith is not a human achievement but a response enabled by God's grace.
- Faith vs. Works: The Apostle Paul, in his letters, often contrasts faith with works of the law. He argues that salvation is not attained through adherence to religious rituals or moral deeds but through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Faith is portrayed as the antithesis of works in this theological framework.
- Response to God's Initiative: Faith is viewed as a response to God's initiative in offering salvation. It is not something we produce on our own but a response empowered by the Holy Spirit working in our hearts (John 6:44; Ephesians 2:8). It is a surrender of self-reliance and a recognition of our need for God's grace.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Which supports the fact that gift refers to "faith", since "salvation" is not present in the verse. I'm easy, it can refer to the whole shebang, "are having been saved through faith" or just "faith". But it can't refer to "salvation".
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I agree 100%. I was just pointing out that the free-willers on here make faith a work when they say "This is the work required by God".
Nope the genders do not agree
And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1
1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.
But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The genders do not agree with "saved" either. So you have to default to the grammar.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
By the way, the genders don't agree with "salvation", either, which is also feminine. So even if the word "salvation" appeared in Eph 2:8 (it does NOT), it would be a gender mismatch.
Johann
Well-known member
Grace is God giving us something we cannot earn or deserve. According to Romans 11:6, “works” of any kind destroys grace—the idea is that a worker earns payment, while the recipient of grace simply receives it, unearned. Since salvation is all of grace, it cannot be earned. Faith, therefore, is a non-work. Faith cannot truly be considered a “work,” or else it would destroy grace. (See also Romans 4—Abraham’s salvation was dependent on faith in God, as opposed to any work he performed.)
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Tell that to @TomL and the others. They're the ones who insist it's "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent".
Rockson
Well-known member
You should have waited before you made this statement and read what went before. Paul the Apostle in that Eph 2: 8 verse was talking in context of working by the works of the law. Jesus was talking in Jn 6:29 of the work of one's faith both two entirely different subjects and themes.
To help you think of work by the keeping of the law like football.(Eph 2: 8) Now think of the work of faith that Jesus spoke about in (Jn 6:29) like baseball. You keep going to both of these verses and think the application of the word work mean the same things. THEY DON'T. They are two entirely different things with different dynamics in how they apply just like the difference between one sport and another.
There is no word our in the Greek
Thus Barnes notes
The author and finisher of our faith. The word “our” is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God—occupying in this, as in all other things, the pre-eminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. The apostle had not enumerated him among those who had been distinguished for their faith, but he now refers to him as above them all; as a case that deserved to stand by itself. It is probable that there is a continuance here of the allusion to the Grecian games which the apostle had commenced in the previous verse. The word author—ἀρχηγὸν—(marg. beginner)—means properly the source, or cause of anything; or one who makes a beginning. It is rendered in Acts 3:15, 5:31, Prince; in Heb. 2:10, Captain; and in the place before us, Author. It does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. The phrase “the beginner of faith,” or the leader on of faith, would express the idea. He is at the head of all those who have furnished an example of confidence in God, for he was himself the most illustrious instance of it. The expression, then, does not mean properly that he produces faith in us, or that we believe because he causes us to believe—whatever may be the truth about that—but that he stands at the head as the most eminent example that can be referred to on the subject of faith. We are exhorted to look to him, as if at the Grecian games there was one who stood before the racer who had previously carried away every palm of victory; who had always been triumphant, and with whom there was no one who could be compared. The word finisher—τελειωτὴν—corresponds in meaning with the word author. It means that he is the completer as well as the beginner; the last as well as the first
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Hebrews (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 291–292.
