Refuting effectually caused faith

[Johann]

Excellent! That's why we should count all baseless derogatory remarks against us by calvinists as confirmation that we are doing the work that God has preordained us to do.

Problem is I don't view Calvinists as enemies of the cross of our dear Lord Jesus Christ but as brothers and sisters in Him. Personally-I think to call them "Calvinists" is also a derogatory term from Christians.

" think it proper to remind them also of the lions which were in Babylon, and of Daniel and the den: Daniel 6:24 and not of this one only but also of another den, and the prophet Jeremiah, and the mire in which he was smothered up to the neck. Jeremiah 38:5 And emerging from these dens, I would conduct these persons who put forward heat as an excuse into the prison and exhibit Paul to them there, and Silas bound fast in the stocks, covered with bruises and wounds lacerated all over their body with a mass of stripes, yet singing praises to God at midnight and celebrating their holy vigil. For is it not a monstrous thing that those holy men, both in the furnace and the fire, and the den, and among wild beasts, and mire, and in a prison and the stocks, and amidst stripes and jailers, and intolerable sufferings, never complained of any of these things, but were continually uttering prayers and sacred songs with much energy and fervent zeal, while we who have not undergone any of their innumerable sufferings small or great, neglect our own salvation on account of a scorching sun and a little short lived heat and toil, and forsaking the assembly wander away, depraving ourselves by going to meetings which are thoroughly unwholesome?"

"-- In order therefore that this might not take place, the word administered its medicine to you covertly. And that you may understand that the gain which this covert treatment has is great, hear what the Christ says.

If your brother have committed a fault against you convince him of it, and he did not say between him and the whole town, nor, between you and the whole people, but only between you and him.

Let the accusation, he says, be unwitnessed to, in order that the change to amendment may be made easy of digestion.

A great good surely, the making the advice unpublished. Sufficient is the conscience, sufficient that incorruptible judge. It is not so much thou who rebukest him who has done wrong as his own conscience (that accuser is the sharper), nor do you do it with the more exact knowledge of the faults committed.

Add not therefore wound to wound by exposing him who has done wrong; but administer for yourself the counsel unwitnessed.

This therefore we are doing now — the very thing that Paul also did, framing the indictment against him who among the Corinthians had sinned without citing of witnesses. And hear how. On this account, he says, brethren, I have applied these figures of speech to myself and Apollos. And yet not he himself nor Apollos were they who had rent the people in schism and divided the Church;

--but all the same he concealed the accusation, and just as by some masks, by hiding the countenances of the defendants by his own and Apollos' names, he afforded them power to amend of that wickedness. And again, Lest in some way after I have come God humble me, and I may have to mourn many of those who have before sinned, and have not repented over the uncleanness and lasciviousness which they had committed.

See how here also he indefinitely mentions those who had sinned, in order that he might not, by openly bringing the accusation, render the soul of those who had sinned more shameless. Therefore, just as we administer our reproofs with so much sparing of your feelings, so do ye also with all seriousness receive the correction; and attend with carefulness to what is said."

I really enjoy reading this-a man after my heart.
Are we doing God's work @synergy?

Shalom my brother-I "un-ignored" you day before yesterday and I'm glad I did.

Johann.

 

[synergy]

Problem is I don't view Calvinists as enemies of the cross of our dear Lord Jesus Christ but as brothers and sisters in Him. Personally-I think to call them "Calvinists" is also a derogatory term from Christians.

" think it proper to remind them also of the lions which were in Babylon, and of Daniel and the den: Daniel 6:24 and not of this one only but also of another den, and the prophet Jeremiah, and the mire in which he was smothered up to the neck. Jeremiah 38:5 And emerging from these dens, I would conduct these persons who put forward heat as an excuse into the prison and exhibit Paul to them there, and Silas bound fast in the stocks, covered with bruises and wounds lacerated all over their body with a mass of stripes, yet singing praises to God at midnight and celebrating their holy vigil. For is it not a monstrous thing that those holy men, both in the furnace and the fire, and the den, and among wild beasts, and mire, and in a prison and the stocks, and amidst stripes and jailers, and intolerable sufferings, never complained of any of these things, but were continually uttering prayers and sacred songs with much energy and fervent zeal, while we who have not undergone any of their innumerable sufferings small or great, neglect our own salvation on account of a scorching sun and a little short lived heat and toil, and forsaking the assembly wander away, depraving ourselves by going to meetings which are thoroughly unwholesome?"

"-- In order therefore that this might not take place, the word administered its medicine to you covertly. And that you may understand that the gain which this covert treatment has is great, hear what the Christ says.

If your brother have committed a fault against you convince him of it, and he did not say between him and the whole town, nor, between you and the whole people, but only between you and him.

Let the accusation, he says, be unwitnessed to, in order that the change to amendment may be made easy of digestion.

A great good surely, the making the advice unpublished. Sufficient is the conscience, sufficient that incorruptible judge. It is not so much thou who rebukest him who has done wrong as his own conscience (that accuser is the sharper), nor do you do it with the more exact knowledge of the faults committed.

Add not therefore wound to wound by exposing him who has done wrong; but administer for yourself the counsel unwitnessed.

This therefore we are doing now — the very thing that Paul also did, framing the indictment against him who among the Corinthians had sinned without citing of witnesses. And hear how. On this account, he says, brethren, I have applied these figures of speech to myself and Apollos. And yet not he himself nor Apollos were they who had rent the people in schism and divided the Church;

--but all the same he concealed the accusation, and just as by some masks, by hiding the countenances of the defendants by his own and Apollos' names, he afforded them power to amend of that wickedness. And again, Lest in some way after I have come God humble me, and I may have to mourn many of those who have before sinned, and have not repented over the uncleanness and lasciviousness which they had committed.

See how here also he indefinitely mentions those who had sinned, in order that he might not, by openly bringing the accusation, render the soul of those who had sinned more shameless. Therefore, just as we administer our reproofs with so much sparing of your feelings, so do ye also with all seriousness receive the correction; and attend with carefulness to what is said."

I really enjoy reading this-a man after my heart.
Are we doing God's work @synergy?

Shalom my brother-I "un-ignored" you day before yesterday and I'm glad I did.

Johann.

Since this is an open forum, it is very difficult to discretely correct a brother. And those who are following the conversation need to be informed of how not to fall into the same trap. Myself, I accept that this is an open forum and am prepared for everything that might come my way.

As for calvinists, I take exception to their Do Nothing theology. Judging by the last few posts between us, I don't think you're in that camp either.

 

[Johann]

Since this is an open forum, it is very difficult to discretely correct a brother. And those who are following the conversation need to be informed of how not to fall into the same trap. Myself, I accept that this is an open forum and am prepared for everything that might come my way.

As for calvinists, I take exception to their Do Nothing theology. Judging by the last few posts between us, I don't think you're in that camp either.

All good brother-I would rather lean on being discreet on a open forum knowing we will give an account of everything we have done, online or off line-in word, thought and deed. Much mercy and grace has been given to us. One day I will share my testimony.
Shalom.

 

[synergy]

All good brother-I would rather lean on being discreet on a open forum knowing we will give an account of everything we have done, online or off line-in word, thought and deed. Much mercy and grace has been given to us. One day I will share my testimony.
Shalom.

A slap from a friend, to wake me up to the truth, is much more valuable than a kiss from an enemy. We are in desperate need of the truth and our egos must be suppressed if we are ever to arrive at the truth. There is too much of feminine political-correctness going on.

 

[Johann]

A slap from a friend, to wake me up to the truth, is much more valuable than a kiss from an enemy. We are in desperate need of the truth and our egos must be suppressed if we are ever to arrive at the truth. There is too much of feminine political-correctness going on.

I am in desperate need of truth brother as I don't claim to know it all-our will should not only be suppressed but dethroned.
We are supposed to be "dead to self" but alive in Christ Jesus.
I am sure you are aware of this and I need a slap from a friend to keep me humble since pride comes in many forms and manifestations.

You have really helped me as I am reading John Chrysostom [SAINT] [DOCTOR] and will gladly share this in fellowship with my "family"

God bless
Johann.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Problem is I don't view Calvinists as enemies of the cross of our dear Lord Jesus Christ but as brothers and sisters in Him. Personally-I think to call them "Calvinists" is also a derogatory term from Christians.

Then why don't you believe "Christian" is also a derogatory term?

What do you think about me?

You refuse to engage at most any level with me unless I compliment you on something you say.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But it's not hearing the word of God ALONE. Those words aren't magic. They're only effectual if God opens your eyes, ears and heart to hear them.

You believe you were enlightened without "those words". Have you changed your position?

You can't even understand God without learning English.

Why did God give His word to correct you if it has no innate qualities of its own? Why apostles if you've been Enlighted?

You have many questions you must answer yet you avoid them continually.

 

[brightfame52]

It's as plain as the noon day sun you are not able to address rebuttal and teach unbiblical doctrines

Afraid not

It's salvation which is not of oneself

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

verse 9 makes no sense if the demonstrative pronoun that refers to faith

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Salvation is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Faith is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation makes sense and is consistent with scripture

Faith makes no sense here

faith is not the result of work are words never uttered in scripture

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

 

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

It's as plain as the noon day sun you are not able to address rebuttal and teach unbiblical doctrines

Afraid not

It's salvation which is not of oneself

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

verse 9 makes no sense if the demonstrative pronoun that refers to faith

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Salvation is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Faith is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation makes sense and is consistent with scripture

Faith makes no sense here

faith is not the result of work are words never uttered in scripture

 

[Johann]

Then why don't you believe "Christian" is also a derogatory term?

What do you think about me?

You refuse to engage at most any level with me unless I compliment you on something you say.

Not at all-you are on ignore, with good reason.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It's as plain as the noon day sun you are not able to address rebuttal and teach unbiblical doctrines

Afraid not

It's salvation which is not of oneself

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

verse 9 makes no sense if the demonstrative pronoun that refers to faith

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Salvation is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Faith is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation makes sense and is consistent with scripture

Faith makes no sense here

faith is not the result of work are words never uttered in scripture

It's either "faith" or both "salvation" and "faith". "This" is neuter, so you can't associate "this" with "saved" or "faith" by gender. But "this" always refers to a thing. The word "saved" is not a thing. The word "faith" is a thing. So the strongest argument is that "this" refers to "faith".

 

[Johann]

It's either "faith" or both "salvation" and "faith". "This" is neuter, so you can't associate "this" with "saved" or "faith" by gender. But "this" always refers to a thing. The word "saved" is not a thing. The word "faith" is a thing. So the strongest argument is that "this" refers to "faith".

THE FAITH (NT)

If the NOUN has no DEFINITE ARTICLE, it could refer to

one's personal trust in Christ
faithful living
the body of Christian doctrine (with the ARTICLE, cf. Acts 6:7; 18:8; 14:22; Gal. 1:23; 3:23; 6:10; Phil. 1:27; Jude 3,20)
Paul uses "faith" to

stimulate the faith of those already saved

In Titus 1:1Paul uses kata several times in the opening chapter.

according to faith, Titus 1:1
according to piety, Titus 1:1
according to the command, Titus 1:3
according to common faith, Titus 1:4
according to appoint, Titus 1:5 (compound word)
according to the teaching, Titus 1:9
Obviously there is a standard of truth and conduct (cf. Titus 3:5,7).
JOHN'S USE OF THE VERB "BELIEVE"

John primarily combines "believe" with PREPOSITIONS

eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus.
into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)
into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:37,42)
into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)
into the One He has sent (John 6:28-29)
into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)
into Jesus (John 12:11)
into Light (John 12:36)
into God (John 12:44; 14:1)

ev means "in" as in Mark 1:15; John 3:15

the DATIVE CASE with no PREPOSITION (John 4:50; 1 John 3:23; 5:10)

hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe. Some examples are
Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)
Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)
Jesus in the Father and the Father in Him (John 10:38)
Jesus is the Christ (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)
Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)
Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)
Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)
Biblical faith is in both a person and a message! It is evidenced by obedience, love, and perseverance.

Believe, Trust, Faith, and Faithfulness in the Old Testament

Opening Statement
 It needs to be stated that the use of this theological concept, so crucial to the NT, is not as clearly defined in the OT. It is surely there, but demonstrated in key selected passages and persons.
 The OT blends
the individual and the community
the personal encounter and covenant obedience
Faith is both personal encounter and daily lifestyle! It is easier to describe in the life of a faithful follower than in a lexical form (i.e., word study). This personal aspect is best illustrated in
Abraham and his seed
David and Israel
These men met/encountered God and their lives were permanently changed (not perfect lives, but continuing faith). Testing revealed weaknesses and strengths of their faith encounter with God, but the intimate, trusting relationship continued through time! It was tested and refined, but it continued as evidenced by their devotion and lifestyle.

Main root used
אמן (BDB 52, KB 63)
VERB
Qal stem ‒ to support, to nourish (i.e., 2 Kgs. 10:1,5; Esther 2:7, the non-theological usage)
Niphal stem ‒ to make sure or firm, to establish, to confirm, to be faithful or trustworthy
 (1) of men, Isa. 8:2; 53:1; Jer. 40:14
 (2) of things, Isa. 22:23
 (3) of God, Deut. 7:9; Isa. 49:7; Jer. 42:5
Hiphil stem ‒ to stand firm, to believe, to trust
 (1) Abraham believed God, Gen. 15:6
 (2) the Israelites in Egypt believed, Exod. 4:31; 14:31 (negated in Deut. 1:32)
 (3) Israelites believed YHWH spoke through Moses, Exod. 19:9; Ps. 106:12,24
 (4) Ahaz did not trust in God, Isa 7:9
 (5) whoever believes in it/him, Isa. 28:16
 (6) believe truths about God, Isa. 43:10-12
NOUN (MASCULINE) #8210; faithfulness (i.e., Deut. 32:20; Isa. 25:1; 26:2)
ADVERB ‒ truly, verily, I agree, may it be so (cf. Deut. 27:15-26; 1 Kgs. 1:36; 1 Chr. 16:36; Isa. 65:16; Jer. 11:5; 28:6). This is the liturgical use of "amen" in the OT and NT.
אמת (BDB 54, KB 68) <FEMININE NOUN, firmness, faithfulness, truth
of men, Isa. 10:20; 42:3; 48:1
of God, Exod. 34:6; Ps. 117:2; Isa. 38:18,19; 61:8
of truth, Deut. 32:4; 1 Kgs. 22:16; Ps. 33:4; 98:3; 100:5; 119:30; Jer. 9:5; Zech. 8:16
אמונה (BDB 53, KB 62), firmness, steadfastness, fidelity
of hands, Exod. 17:12
of times, Isa. 33:6
of humans, Jer. 5:3; 7:28; 9:2
of God, Ps. 40:11; 88:11; 89:1,2,5,8; 119:138

Paul’s use of this OT concept
Paul bases his new understanding of YHWH and the OT on his personal encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus (cf. Acts 9:1-19; 22:3-16; 26:9-18).
He found OT support for his new understanding in two key OT passages which use the root אמן.
Gen. 15:6 ‒ Abram’s personal encounter initiated by God (Genesis 12) resulted in an obedient life of faith (Genesis 12-22). Paul alludes to this in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.
Isa. 28:16 – those who believe in it (i.e., God’s tested and firmly placed cornerstone) will never be
Rom. 9:33, "put to shame" or "be disappointed"
Rom. 10:11, same as above
Hab. 2:4 ‒ those who know the faithful God should live faithful lives (cf. Jer. 7:28). Paul uses this text in Rom. 1:17 and Gal. 3:11 (also note Heb. 10:38).

Peter’s use of the OT concept
Peter combines
Isa. 8:14 – 1 Pet. 2:8 (stumbling block)
Isa. 28:16 – 1 Pet. 2:6 (cornerstone)
Ps. 118:22 – 1 Pet 2:7 (rejected stone)
He turns the unique language that describes Israel, "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession" from
Deut. 10:15; Isa. 43:21
Isa. 61:6; 66:21
Exod. 19:6; Deut. 7:6
and now uses it for the church’s faith in Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 2;5,9

John’s use of the concept
Its NT usage
The term "believed" is from the Greek term pisteuō. which can also be translated "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the NOUN does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the VERB is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd’s commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13,18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-22,31-32).

Its use with PREPOSITIONS
eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus
into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)
into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45 48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)
into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)
into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)
into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)
into Light (John 12:36)
into God (John 14:1)
ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14
epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5, 24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6
the DATIVE CASE with no PREPOSITION as in Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10
hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe
Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)
Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)
Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)
Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)
Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)
Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)
We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)
Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)

Conclusion
Biblical faith is the human response to a divine word/promise. God always initiates (i.e., John 6:44,65), but part of this divine communication is the need for humans to respond.

repentance

faith/trust
obedience

perseverance

Biblical faith is

a personal relationship (initial faith)
an affirmation of biblical truth (faith in God’s revelation, i.e., Scripture)
an appropriate obedient response to it (daily faithfulness)

Biblical faith is not a ticket to heaven or an insurance policy. It is a personal relationship. This is the purpose of creation, humans being made in the image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) of God. The issue is "intimacy." God desires fellowship, not a certain theological standing! But fellowship with a holy God demands that the children demonstrate the "family" characteristics (i.e., holiness, cf. Lev. 19:2; Matt. 5:48; 1 Pet. 1:15-16). The Fall (cf. Genesis 3) affected our ability to respond appropriately. Therefore, God acted on our behalf (cf. Ezek. 36:27-38), giving us a "new heart" and a "new spirit," which enables us through faith and repentance to fellowship with Him and obey Him!
 
All three are crucial. All three must be maintained. The goal is to know God (both Hebrew and Greek senses) and to reflect His character in our lives. The goal of faith is not heaven someday, but Christlikeness every day!
Human faithfulness is the result (NT), not the basis (OT) for a relationship with God: human’s faith in His faithfulness; human’s trust in His trustworthiness. The heart of the NT view of salvation is that humans must respond initially and continually to the grace and mercy of God, demonstrated in Christ. He has loved, He has sent, He has provided; we must respond in faith and faithfulness (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10)!
 The faithful God wants a faithful people to reveal Himself to a faithless world and bring them to personal faith in Him.
Utley

Hope this will shed some clarity.re Faith.

 

[Johann]

It's either "faith" or both "salvation" and "faith". "This" is neuter, so you can't associate "this" with "saved" or "faith" by gender. But "this" always refers to a thing. The word "saved" is not a thing. The word "faith" is a thing. So the strongest argument is that "this" refers to "faith".

And yet the Definite Article and prepositions defines faith and salvation-correct?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And yet the Definite Article and prepositions defines faith and salvation-correct?

Yes, so it could be both. I know Greek (well, mostly), but the English points only to faith.

 

[Johann]

Yes, so it could be both. I know Greek (well, mostly), but the English points only to faith.

But not [The-Definite Article] salvation?
Good to hear you know Koine Greek and Morphologies brother.

THE GOSPEL

The Gospel of Mark is probably the first written Gospel; if so, this is the first use of the term euangelion (cf. Mark 1:14,15; 8:35; 10:29; 13:10; 14:9) by a Gospel writer (Paul's use in Gal. 2:2 and 1 Thess. 2:9 would be chronologically earlier). It is literally "the good news" or "the good message." It is interesting to note that John never uses the NOUN, nor do the books of Hebrews or James. This obviously reflects Isa. 61:1 and possibly 40:9 and 52:7 (see LXX). Its grammatical form can be understood as

the message given by Jesus
the message about Jesus
The Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, published by IVP, says "The genitive (‘of') is probably both subjective and objective: Jesus proclaims the gospel and it proclaims his story" (p. 285).

The Jerome Biblical Commentary says "Mark's use of the word 'gospel' is akin to that in Paul, where it can mean either the act of proclaiming or the content of what is proclaimed."

The term "gospel" involves several aspects.

the initial bad news of mankind's sin and rebellion
God's gracious character and provisions to deal with human sin (i.e., the death of Christ)
the open invitation for any or all to accept God's provision by repentance and faith


This good news about Jesus involves three aspects.

It is a person to welcome (i.e., Jesus).
It is truths about that person to believe (i.e., the NT).
It is a life which emulates that person (i.e., a Christlike life).
If any one of these three aspects is depreciated the gospel is damaged!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

But not [The-Definite Article] salvation?
Good to hear you know Koine Greek and Morphologies brother.

The word is not salvation, though. It's "are having been saved" (literally, weird Greek tense). So it would have to be "and this, the fact that you are having been saved", which I suppose is possible.

 

[Johann]

The word is not salvation, though. It's "are having been saved" (literally, weird Greek tense).

Can you give me the Scripture references? This could point to the Aorist+Present-have to check this for myself.
Thanks.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Can you give me the Scripture references? This could point to the Aorist+Present-have to check this for myself.
Thanks.

Ephesians 2 Interlinear Bible

biblehub.com

 

[synergy]

And yet the Definite Article and prepositions defines faith and salvation-correct?

I agree. The definite article "it", being of neuter tense, applies to the entire phrase "for by grace you have been saved through faith". In other words, it is the Grace of God by which you are saved through faith that is the gift of God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I agree. The definite article "it", being of neuter tense, applies to the entire phrase "for by grace you have been saved through faith".

Which means both are the gift.