Refuting effectually caused faith

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

It's as plain as the noon day sun you are not able to address rebuttal and teach unbiblical doctrines

Afraid not

It's salvation which is not of oneself

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

verse 9 makes no sense if the demonstrative pronoun that refers to faith

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Salvation is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Faith is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation makes sense and is consistent with scripture

Faith makes no sense here

faith is not the result of work are words never uttered in scripture

 

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

Then why can you not defend your beliefs

It's salvation which is not of oneself

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

verse 9 makes no sense if the demonstrative pronoun that refers to faith

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Salvation is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or

Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Faith is Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation makes sense and is consistent with scripture

Faith makes no sense here

faith is not the result of work are words never uttered in scripture

 

[synergy]

Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22; 1 Pet 1:22

Along with that, the Bible frequently calls faith "your faith", "his faith", or "their faith" so faith is synergistic not monergistic. Once you can begin to understand that fact then we can talk.

 

[civic]

Along with that, the Bible frequently calls faith "your faith", "his faith", or "their faith" so faith is synergistic not monergistic. Once you can begin to understand that fact then we can talk.

I had pointed out the 4 verses used by most calvinists to point out faith is a gift. Each time the gift of faith is given to those who are already saved like in the fruit of the spirit- faithfulness.

 

[Johann]

Along with that, the Bible frequently calls faith "your faith", "his faith", or "their faith" so faith is synergistic not monergistic. Once you can begin to understand that fact then we can talk.

I think you will agree we have contributed nothing in being born again from above-correct @synergy?

 

[Johann]

I had pointed out the 4 verses used by most calvinists to point out faith is a gift. Each time the gift of faith is given to those who are already saved like in the fruit of the spirit- faithfulness.

Are you saying faith is NOT a gift?

 

[civic]

I think you will agree we have contributed nothing in being born again from above-correct @synergy?

God gives the new birth to those who believe. Belief which is mans responsibility comes prior to regeneration. God gives the new birth to those who receive/believe.

 

[civic]

Are you saying faith is NOT a gift?

every time ( only 4 times in the Greek New Testament ) faith is granted its to those who are already saved.

Prove me wrong.

I was a calvinist for decades and taught the heresy of regeneration preceding faith. I know it inside out and all the references used to prove the doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

God gives the new birth to those who believe. Belief which is mans responsibility comes prior to regeneration. God gives the new birth to those who receive/believe.

So you have contributed something in being born again-1% of self-99% of God.

 

[civic]

So you have contributed something in being born again-1% of self-99% of God.

I have contributed nothing to my salvation. God saves those who believe the gospel. The condition of salvation from Genesis-Revelation has always been faith.

Choose this day whom you will serve. God places that choice/decision on man.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

I think you will agree we have contributed nothing in being born again from above-correct @synergy?

Only a lunatic would claim that he regenerated himself so you are correct.

But that does not diminish the fact that belief in Christ is a prerequisite to being regenerated.

 

[TomL]

Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22; 1 Pet 1:22

Unbelievers do not have the fruit of the spirit

John 15:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

It's absurd, you guys claim man cannot believe spiritual truth but here you have him bearing spiritual fruit

Your doctrine is incredibly convoluted

 

[civic]

Unbelievers do not have the fruit of the spirit

John 15:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

It's absurd, you guys claim man cannot believe spiritual truth but here you have him bearing spiritual fruit

Your doctrine is incredibly convoluted

Exactly and they are blind to it and cannot see/ refuse to see the OBVIOUS contradiction.

 

[Johann]

Only a lunatic would claim that he regenerated himself so you are correct.

But that does not diminish the fact that belief in Christ is a prerequisite to being regenerated.

And a style of life in the sphere of the Holy Spirit-having the fruit of the Ruach for without the Holy Spirit no one belongs to Messiah-and after believing--

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

--a mere intellectual assent to the Divine truth will do nothing to a man's salvation--you agree @synergy?



Joh_6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Joh_6:30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform?

Joh_6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

Joh_6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

Joh_8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Joh_8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

Joh_8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?

Joh_9:18 The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight

Joh_9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

Joh_9:36 He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”

Joh_9:38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

Joh_10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,

Joh_10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Joh_10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;

Joh_10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Joh_11:15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Joh_11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Joh_11:27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”

Joh_11:42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

Joh_11:48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Joh_12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.

Joh_12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,

 

[civic]

Only a lunatic would claim that he regenerated himself so you are correct.

But that does not diminish the fact that belief in Christ is a prerequisite to being regenerated.

ditto

 

[synergy]

And a style of life in the sphere of the Holy Spirit-having the fruit of the Ruach for without the Holy Spirit no one belongs to Messiah-and after believing--

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

--a mere intellectual assent to the Divine truth will do nothing to a man's salvation--you agree @synergy?



Joh_6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Joh_6:30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform?

Joh_6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

Joh_6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

Joh_8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Joh_8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

Joh_8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?

Joh_9:18 The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight

Joh_9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

Joh_9:36 He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”

Joh_9:38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

Joh_10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,

Joh_10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Joh_10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;

Joh_10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Joh_11:15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Joh_11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Joh_11:27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”

Joh_11:42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

Joh_11:48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Joh_12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.

Joh_12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,

There are many people who, like Friedrich Nietzsche, mentally understood Christianity but didn't accept it nor allow God to transform them for one "reason" or another. There are multitudes of cases like that.

 

[Johann]

Exactly and they are blind to it and cannot see/ refuse to see the OBVIOUS contradiction.

Why not pray for them that God dia the Holy Spirit may illuminate and opened the Scriptures?

Luk 24:13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem,
Luk 24:14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened.
Luk 24:15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them.
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.
Luk 24:17 And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad.
Luk 24:18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
Luk 24:19 And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
Luk 24:20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened.
Luk 24:22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning,
Luk 24:23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.
Luk 24:24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
Luk 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther,
Luk 24:29 but they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them.
Luk 24:30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.
Luk 24:32 They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?”

You say you have eyes to see-good for you.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why not pray for them that God dia the Holy Spirit may illuminate and opened the Scriptures?

Luk 24:13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem,
Luk 24:14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened.
Luk 24:15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them.
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.
Luk 24:17 And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad.
Luk 24:18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
Luk 24:19 And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
Luk 24:20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened.
Luk 24:22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning,
Luk 24:23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.
Luk 24:24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
Luk 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther,
Luk 24:29 but they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them.
Luk 24:30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.
Luk 24:32 They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?”

You say you have eyes to see-good for you.

Their eyes were opened? By whom?

 

[Presby02]

Don't you know ALL means sheep/elect.

Can't you see that in the text ?

So world means every single last person? Do you lie in the power of the evil one?? Has the sins of the whole world, every single last person, been taken away? John 6:33. Does Christ give life to every last person?

 

[synergy]

Their eyes were opened? By whom?

Yes, their eyes were opened at the breaking of bread, when Christ blessed it and gave it to them. That's also known as the Eucharist.