The Rogue Tomato
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Their eyes were opened? By whom?
Refuting effectually caused faith
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Already answered. Christ. You don't believe He has that Divine power?
Johann
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2Ti 2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
2Ti 2:19. As a contrast to the unsettling action of the heretics, we have ὁ μέντοι στερεὸς θεμέλιος τοῦ Θεοῦ ἔστηκεν] θεμέλιος (properly an adjective, supply λίθος) is originally the foundation-stone of a building; if that signification be retained here, the building can only mean the church of Christ.
The question then arises, what is its foundation-stone?
--and to this various answers have been given.
Ambrosius understands it to be God’s promises;
Bengel, the fides Dei immota; Heinrichs, the Christian religion;
Ernesti, the doctrine of the resurrection (2Ti 2:18);
Calvin, the election of grace.
All this is arbitrary. The θεμέλιος must be something which, according to the next verse, can also be regarded as οἰκία, viz. as Heydenreich says: ἐκκλησια τεθεμελιωμένη ὑπὸ Θεοῦ (similarly de Wette and Wiesinger).
Paul, however, calls it θεμέλιος, not because that word denotes a building, which is not the case, but because the church, as it was originally set by God in the world, only forms the foundation of the building which is to be perfected gradually (so, too, van Oosterzee).
Chrysostom’s explanation is inapposite: αἱ στερεαὶ ψυχαὶ ἑστήκασι πεπηγυίαι καὶ ἀκίνητοι; for Paul is not thinking here of individual believers, but of the church of which they are members.
Possibly the θεμέλιος does not mean anything definite, and the apostle “merely intends to say that the church is firmly founded” (Hofmann); but that is not probable, especially as the attribute στερεός and the verb ἕστηκεν point to a definite, concrete conception in the apostle’s mind.
στερεός and ἕστηκεν form a contrast to ἀνατρέπουσι. Though the faith of some may be destroyed, the foundation of God, i.e. which God has laid, still stands firm, unwavering.
H. Meyer.
Even scholars have major disagreements on ONE verse as I have shown you-how can we claim that we know everything?
There is a massive apostasy globally-and wars and the natural man is only busy with the ego eimi and have no desire after the things of God.
We are commanded to--
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col_2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Have a blessed day.
Johann
Well-known member
Ge 21:19 God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, filled the container with water, and gave the boy a drink.
Ge 35:13 God went up from him in the place where he spoke with him.
Nu 22:31 Then Yahweh opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw Yahweh’s angel standing in the way, with his sword drawn in his hand; and he bowed his head, and fell on his face.
2Ki 6:20 When they had come into Samaria, Elisha said, “Yahweh, open these men’s eyes, that they may see.” Yahweh opened their eyes, and they saw; and behold, they were in the middle of Samaria.
"Then their eyes were opened" This is an aorist passive indicative, which is a reversal of the imperfect passive indicative of Luke 24:16. From Luke 24:35 we learn that they recognized Jesus' characteristic way of blessing the food.
Luke uses this term "opened" (dianoigô) three times in this context:
1.their eyes were opened, Luke 24:31
2. their understanding of OT Scripture increased, Luke 24:32
3. the Apostles' minds are opened to Scripture, Luke 24:45
The Bible is divine revelation, not human discovery. Spiritual truth is a gift from God to blinded, sinful humanity
The Rogue Tomato
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Your answer was by what, not by whom. Yes, by Christ. It's almost as if faith comers by hearing and hearing comes by the word of Christ.Already answered. Christ. You don't believe He has that Divine power?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Yes, God opens eyes. That's how people come to faith.
You can't go wrong with St Chrysostom's explanation.
It's by the words of the Word of God (Christ), which are recorded in the Bible, that we come to faith. Read Matt 10:8-13.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's not what scripture says. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of Christ/God. If it worked the way you say, then that verse would read "faith comes by hearing the word of Christ/God". But that's not what the verse says.
Johann
Well-known member
I'm actually looking for his commentaries.
Johann
Well-known member
of God. Luk_3:2; **Luk_4:4, Joh_3:34; **Joh_8:47, Eph_6:17, Heb_6:5; Heb_11:3; Heb_13:7, **1Pe_1:25, Significant ancient authorities support the alternate reading "of Christ," but Gifford cites Meyer, De Wette, Lange, Philippi, etc., who "agree in regarding it as a gloss intended to define more precisely the meaning of "by the word of God." Furthermore, if the alternate reading is accepted, it is the only occurrence of rēma Christou in the New Testament. Joh_5:38; Joh_8:37, Col_3:16, 1Pe_1:11, 1Jn_1:10.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I put both Christ/God to accommodate people who use different translations.
Johann
Well-known member
No problem.
Johann
Well-known member
faith comes by hearing -- The desired response of preaching is faith.
When it is said that faith cometh by hearing, it does not mean that all who hear actually believe, but that faith does not exist unless there is a message, or report, to be heard and believed.
The context of v. 17 is the oral preaching about Christ (see RSV)
Obedience comes from believing. and believing comes from hearing the Word of God (Rom_10:17). Compare 1Th_2:13; Heb_4:2 (Rev.); and hearing of faith, i.e., message of faith, Gal_3:2. (See Act_18:8 for the process of obeying.)
hearing by the word of God -- KJ (Majority Text) haramtos theou is found many times elsewhere. (dia rematos Christou, through the word of Christ, in some texts is only found here and is not conclusive.) see RSV, NIV, etc.
And the report, or the message (η ̔ἀκοὴ hē akoē), is by the Word of God; that is, the message is sent by the command of God. It is his word, sent by his direction,
word of God -- The word from God, originating with God. cf parallel expression Luk_3:2; Joh_3:34; Eph_6:17; Heb_6:5; Heb_11:3.
No problemos.
Either way, the onus is still on hearing the word of God (Bible). What else is there to listen to, voices in your head?
Click on the following link and look for John Chrysostom:
CHURCH FATHERS: Home
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
But it's not hearing the word of God ALONE. Those words aren't magic. They're only effectual if God opens your eyes, ears and heart to hear them.
I already told you that's by Christ that we believe the word of God (Bible). Another one of your strawmen went up in flames.
The fact remains that it's by the words of the Word of God (Christ), which are recorded in the Bible, that we come to faith. Read Matt 10:8-13.
Johann
Well-known member
Thank you @synergy -I have bookmarked it.Click on the following link and look for John Chrysostom:
CHURCH FATHERS: Home
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.www.newadvent.org
This is from him
How am I distressed, think you, when I call to mind that on the festival days the multitudes assembled resemble the broad expanse of the sea, but now not even the smallest part of that multitude is gathered together here? Where are they now who oppress us with their presence on the feast days? I look for them, and am grieved on their account when I mark what a multitude are perishing of those who are in the way of salvation, how large a loss of brethren I sustain, how few are reached by the things which concern salvation, and how the greater part of the body of the Church is like a dead and motionless carcass.
And what concern is that to us? you say. The greatest possible concern if you pay no attention to your brethren, if you do not exhort and advise, if you put no constraint on them, and do not forcibly drag them hither, and lead them away out of their deep indolence. For that one ought not to be useful to himself alone, but also to many others, Christ declared plainly, when He called us salt, Matthew 5:13 and leaven, and light: Matthew 5:14 for these things are useful and profitable to others.
For a lamp does not shine for itself, but for those who are sitting in darkness: and you are a lamp not that you may enjoy the light by yourself, but that you may bring back yonder man who has gone astray.
For what profit is a lamp if it does not give light to him who sits in darkness?
And what profit is a Christian when he benefits no one, neither leads any one back to virtue?
Again salt is not an astringent to itself but braces up those parts of the body which have decayed, and prevents them from falling to pieces and perishing.
Even so do thou, since God has appointed you to be spiritual salt, bind and brace up the decayed members, that is the indolent and sordid brethren, and having rescued them from their indolence as from some form of corruption, unite them to the rest of the body of the Church.
And this is the reason why He called you leaven: for leaven also does not leaven itself, but, little though it is, it affects the whole lump however big it may be.
So also do ye: although you are few in number, yet be ye many and powerful in faith, and in zeal towards God. As then the leaven is not weak on account of its littleness, but prevails owing to its inherent heat, and the force of its natural quality, so ye also will be able to bring back a far larger number than yourselves, if you will, to the same degree of zeal as your own. Now if they make the summer season their excuse: for I hear of their saying things of this kind, the present stifling heat is excessive, the scorching sun is intolerable, we cannot bear being trampled and crushed in the crowd, and to be steaming all over with perspiration and oppressed by the heat and confined space: I am ashamed of them, believe me: for such excuses are womanish: indeed even in their case who have softer bodies, and a weaker nature, such pretexts do not suffice for justification. Nevertheless, even if it seems a disgrace to make a reply to a defense of this kind, yet is it necessary. For if they put forward such excuses as these and do not blush, much more does it behoove us not to be ashamed of replying to these things. What then am I to say to those who advance these pretexts? I would remind them of the three children in the furnace and the flame, who when they saw the fire encircling them on all sides, enveloping their mouth and their eyes and even their breath, did not cease singing that sacred and mystical hymn to God, in company with the universe, but standing in the midst of the pyre sent up their song of praise to the common Lord of all with greater cheerfulness than they who abide in some flowery field: and together with these three children I should think it proper to remind them also of the lions which were in Babylon, and of Daniel and the den: Daniel 6:24 and not of this one only but also of another den, and the prophet Jeremiah, and the mire in which he was smothered up to the neck. Jeremiah 38:5 And emerging from these dens, I would conduct these persons who put forward heat as an excuse into the prison and exhibit Paul to them there, and Silas bound fast in the stocks, covered with bruises and wounds lacerated all over their body with a mass of stripes, yet singing praises to God at midnight and celebrating their holy vigil. For is it not a monstrous thing that those holy men, both in the furnace and the fire, and the den, and among wild beasts, and mire, and in a prison and the stocks, and amidst stripes and jailers, and intolerable sufferings, never complained of any of these things, but were continually uttering prayers and sacred songs with much energy and fervent zeal, while we who have not undergone any of their innumerable sufferings small or great, neglect our own salvation on account of a scorching sun and a little short lived heat and toil, and forsaking the assembly wander away, depraving ourselves by going to meetings which are thoroughly unwholesome? When the dew of the divine oracles is so abundant do you make heat your excuse? The water which I will give him, says Christ shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life; John 4:14 and again; He that believes in me as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38 Tell me; when you have spiritual wells and rivers, are you afraid of material heat? Now in the market place where there is so much turmoil and crowding, and scorching wind, how is it that you do not make suffocation and heat an excuse for absenting yourself? For it is impossible for you to say that there you can enjoy a cooler temperature, and that all the heat is concentrated here with us:— the truth is exactly the reverse; here indeed owing to the pavement floor, and to the construction of the building in other respects (for it is carried up to a vast height), the air is lighter and cooler: whereas there the sun is strong in every direction, and there is much crowding, and vapour and dust, and other things which add to discomfort far more than these.
Whence it is plain that these senseless excuses are the offspring of indolence and of a supine disposition, destitute of the fire of the Holy Spirit.
He said it well.
Excellent! That's why we should count all baseless derogatory remarks against us by calvinists as confirmation that we are doing the work that God has preordained us to do.
