civic
Well-known member
Yep
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
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Johann
Well-known member
Imperatives - Imperatives are the statements that we believe we can all touch and feel. They are commands that sound like “be this” or "do this.”Yep
When we hear an imperative, we instantly say to ourselves, “Now that is something practical I can do.”
In Scripture we can basically see that an indicative is what Christ has DONE for us and an imperative is what we must DO.
In Scripture, indicatives are the power behind the imperatives. We have already seen this many times in Philippians. We have a common joy of sharing in the gospel of Christ (indicative); therefore, we are commanded to love the Church (imperative). We have an eternal promise of salvation in Christ (indicative); therefore, we must live for Christ whether by life or death (imperative). We have been saved into the Kingdom of Christ (indicative); therefore, we must live out our heavenly citizenship (imperative). Salvation in Christ sheds light on the destruction of those who hate God (indicative); therefore, we must persevere and even suffer for the sake of Christ (imperative). We have comfort, participation in the Spirit, affection, and consolation in Christ (indicative); therefore we must not seek self but the interest of others (imperative). AND we have a perfect example of humility in the Lord Jesus who has emptied himself and been exalted by the Father above every name (indicative); therefore, we must think and act in imitating the very mind of Christ in humble unity (imperative).
As we approach our next passage of Scripture this week, may I ask us all to ponder how each of these indicatives empowers us for the imperatives. Without the work of Christ in our lives, obeying any imperative from him is absolutely impossible. Therefore, both indicatives and imperatives are intensely practical. This is what we will find as we dig into Philippians 2:12-14.
https://graceandtruthcincy.org/pastors-blog/2017/8/16/indicatives-and-imperatives-in-scripture
civic
Well-known member
Amen
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Fly by flapping your arms. That's an imperative. Now, do it.
civic
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Tell tale signs of immaturity-not having a clue of what is presented to you.
Johann
Well-known member
Some here are unhinged.
Rockson
Well-known member
Yes the devil just like you have right here gave a few imperative requests.
“If you are the Son of God, jump off, because the Scriptures say, ‘God will command his angels to help you, and their hands will catch you, so that you will not hit your foot on a rock.’” Matt 4:5
What the other poster was referring to were request that God actually gave to men. You of course wanted to twist that with your foolishness. So here's another imperative that Jesus gave to the devil and if I were you I'd take heed to it as well...."Do not tempt the Lord your God!" Deut 6:16
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Here are some people who acted upon imperatives:
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
What was wrong with their good deeds? Their deeds were not wrought in God. Everything you do on your own steam is absolutely worthless or worse. What matters is what God works in you.
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Johann
Well-known member
Forgetting context--
The context of these verses is Jesus' warning about false prophets and false disciples. In the preceding verses, Jesus talks about the narrow gate and the importance of entering through it to reach salvation. He contrasts this with the wide gate that leads to destruction. Then, he warns against false prophets who come in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
In verses 22-23, Jesus continues this theme by describing a scenario where people come to him claiming to have done great works in his name. They appeal to their prophesying, casting out demons, and performing miracles as evidence of their righteousness. However, Jesus responds by rejecting them, saying, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
These people who claim to have prophesied, cast out demons, and performed miracles in Jesus' name were likely individuals who associated themselves with the Christian faith but lacked a genuine relationship with Jesus.
They relied on their outward actions and accomplishments rather than true faith and obedience to God's will. Jesus' response emphasizes the importance of genuine discipleship and obedience to God's commands, rather than mere outward displays of religious activity.
it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The context of this passage is found in the New Testament book of Philippians, specifically in chapter 2, verses 12-13. Philippians is a letter written by the apostle Paul to the church in Philippi while he was imprisoned, likely in Rome.
In the preceding verses, Paul encourages the Philippian believers to have the same mindset as Christ, who humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death on the cross. He emphasizes the importance of humility, unity, and selflessness among believers.
In verses 12-13, Paul continues to exhort the Philippians in their Christian walk. He addresses them as "my beloved," indicating his affection for them. Paul commends them for their obedience, noting that they have obeyed not only in his presence but even more so in his absence.
Then, Paul instructs them to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." This does not mean that they need to work for their salvation, as salvation is a gift of God's grace received through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). Instead, Paul is urging them to live out the implications of their salvation, to actively pursue a life of obedience to God with reverence and awe.
Paul emphasizes that this pursuit of obedience is possible because "it is God who is at work in you." He reassures them that God is actively working within them, both to give them the desire to obey and to empower them to carry out His will. This underscores the cooperative nature of the Christian life, where believers partner with God in their sanctification.
Overall, this passage encourages believers to live out their faith with humility, obedience, and reverence, relying on God's grace and empowerment to do so.
to will] I.e. His working produces these effects, not merely tends towards them. Effecteth in you your willing would be a fair rendering. Here, though in passing, one of the deepest mysteries of grace is touched upon. On the one hand is the will of the Christian, real, personal, and in full exercise; appealed to powerfully as such in this very passage. On the other hand, beneath it, as cause beneath result, if the will is to work in God’s way, is seen God working, God “effecting.”
A true theology will recognize with equal reverence and entireness of conviction both these great parallels of truth. It will realize human responsibility with “fear and trembling”; it will adore the depths of grace with deep submission, and attribute every link in the chain of actual salvation to God alone ultimately
Cambridge
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Yes it is God who works in believers (not unbelievers) and does so synergistically as believers are to work out their salvation even their sanctification
Those the lord did not know seem to be trusting in what they did rather than a personal relationship with God based upon trust in and love for him
civic
Well-known member
Correct they have it backwards.
Their doctrine of meticulous divine determination of all things can have no other result
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
civic
Well-known member
nope salvation is not of oneself in the passage- by grace you have been saved, not of works so no man can boast about their works.
SALVATION IS THE GIFT OF GOD THROUGH THE GOSPEL OF GRACE
NEXT
civic
Well-known member
Matthew 13- The Parable of the Sower
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith
1- Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead. And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil.
2- Only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
3- Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
4- Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while
Luke 14:23 And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel (αναγκασον) people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’” @synergy. Remember this from the old forum
The Greek word αναγκασον is to urge or compel, not irresistibly draw.There are 4 major Calvinist pillars that fall with the Parable of the Wedding Feast which is connected to the Parable of the Sower above.
- Monergism (Total Depravity),
- Preservation of Saints (many called by God but few chosen by God),
- Irresistible Grace (many called by God but few chosen by God),
- and even Limited Atonement because as many as could possibly be found were invited
hope this helps !!!
Afraid not
It's salvation which is not of oneself
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
verse 9 makes no sense if the demonstrative pronoun that refers to faith
Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Salvation is Not of works, lest any man should boast.
or
Ephesians 2:9 — 9 Faith is Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation makes sense and is consistent with scripture
Faith makes no sense here
faith is not the result of work are words never uttered in scripture
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8Matthew 13- The Parable of the Sower
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith
1- Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead. And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil.
2- Only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
3- Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
4- Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while
Luke 14:23 And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel (αναγκασον) people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’” @synergy. Remember this from the old forum
There are 4 major Calvinist pillars that fall with the Parable of the Wedding Feast which is connected to the Parable of the Sower above.
- Monergism (Total Depravity),
- Preservation of Saints (many called by God but few chosen by God),
- Irresistible Grace (many called by God but few chosen by God),
- and even Limited Atonement because as many as could possibly be found were invited
hope this helps !!!
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
