Johann
Well-known member
--but neglected the rest of my post.
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
Verse 19. The exceeding greatness of his power] As the apostle is here speaking of the glorious state of believers after death, the exceeding greatness of his power, or that power which surpasses all difficulties, being itself omnipotent, is to be understood of that might which is to be exerted in raising the body at the last day; as it will require the same power or energy which he wrought in Christ, when he raised his body from the grave, to raise up the bodies of all mankind; the resurrection of the human nature of Christ being a proof of the resurrection of mankind in general.
Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 435.
Awareness of God’s Immense Power (1:19) If all this provides tremendous motivation for us, verses 19–21 also show us the immense power available to us. Typically Paul uses superlatives in describing this power: incomparably great (literally, “exceeding greatness of …”) and then three nouns of overlapping meaning, one meaning active “force” and two that share the sense of “strength” or “might.” But even such vivid verbal description is not enough. Paul concretizes this power in two ways. In verse 19 he specifies that it is for us who believe. In verse 20 he will demonstrate its accomplishment in the resurrection and ascension of Christ.
Walter L. Liefeld, Ephesians (vol. 10; The IVP New Testament Commentary Series; Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997), Eph 1:19.
The third item is the excellent greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working out of his mighty strength. While most of the words for power here are frequent in Paul, this dense concentration of terms is remarkable, and ‘greatness’ (megethos) is hapax legomenon. More significant as an indicator of editorial intervention is the change from the second person plural, natural in a report of Paul’s prayer for his correspondents, to the first person plural, ‘to us who believe’ (cf. on 2:3).
John Muddiman, The Epistle to the Ephesians (Black’s New Testament Commentary; London: Continuum, 2001), 86–87.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You said nothing that changed anything.
Maybe he/she thinks the cart drags the horse
Maybe because scripture shows faith precedes life
But what does the Scripture actually say about the logical order of new life and man’s responsibility in attaining it? Which comes first, new life or faith? Let’s observe:
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:
“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
John 5:40
“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”
John 6:53
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”
John 6:57
“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 15:9
“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 12:36
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”
Galatians 3:2, 5
“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”
1 Timothy 1:16
“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”
Colossians 2:12
“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”
James 1:18
“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
“…being born again…”
“…by the word of God…”
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
“…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
Salvation through regeneration and thus
The washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit are the means of salvation so
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
All show faith is before regeneration
Eph. 2:5 —KJV
“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
”Quickening being made alive equated with salvation so
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Shows faith precedes regeneration as do
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Why the obsession with saying the order is faith before regeneration? I can tell you why. It's a tangible thing for which free willers can take credit.
"I had faith and you didn't, neener neener neener." That's the whole point of free-willism: claiming credit for being the hinge and turning point of your own salvation.
"I had faith and you didn't, neener neener neener." That's the whole point of free-willism: claiming credit for being the hinge and turning point of your own salvation.
Johann
Well-known member
Just one question-our regeneration-was that an act solely of God?Maybe because scripture shows faith precedes life
But what does the Scripture actually say about the logical order of new life and man’s responsibility in attaining it? Which comes first, new life or faith? Let’s observe:
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:
“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
John 5:40
“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”
John 6:53
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”
John 6:57
“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 15:9
“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 12:36
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”
Galatians 3:2, 5
“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”
1 Timothy 1:16
“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”
Colossians 2:12
“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”
James 1:18
“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
“…being born again…”
“…by the word of God…”
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
“…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
Salvation through regeneration and thus
The washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit are the means of salvation so
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
All show faith is before regeneration
Eph. 2:5 —KJV
“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Quickening being made alive equated with salvation so
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Shows faith precedes regeneration as do
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
Yes
God does the regenerating when man believes
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
nope
because its scripture
But what does the Scripture actually say about the logical order of new life and man’s responsibility in attaining it? Which comes first, new life or faith? Let’s observe:
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:
“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
John 5:40
“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”
John 6:53
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”
John 6:57
“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 15:9
“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 12:36
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”
Galatians 3:2, 5
“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”
1 Timothy 1:16
“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”
Colossians 2:12
“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”
James 1:18
“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
“…being born again…”
“…by the word of God…”
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
“…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
Salvation is through regeneration and thus
The washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit are the means of salvation so
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
All show faith is before regeneration
Eph. 2:5 —KJV
“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
”Quickening being made alive equated with salvation so
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Shows faith precedes regeneration as do
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
Johann
Well-known member
So believing eis and palingenesia is a once off Aorist-right.
civic
Well-known member
Nope it’s all over the Bible , faith always precedes salvation, eternal life, new birth , regeneration etc
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
I see this as a warning to free-willers, Arminians, Legalists, Judaizers, and the like; people who believe they "work out their own salvation by doing the work God requires". Do that with fear and trembling, because that's not how salvation works. It is GOD who WORKS IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO for His good pleasure.
"This is the work God requires" is a false gospel. This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. It is God who works in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
I see this as a warning to free-willers, Arminians, Legalists, Judaizers, and the like; people who believe they "work out their own salvation by doing the work God requires". Do that with fear and trembling, because that's not how salvation works. It is GOD who WORKS IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO for His good pleasure.
"This is the work God requires" is a false gospel. This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. It is God who works in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Johann
Well-known member
My mistake-very tired
Transliteration: gennēthēnai
Morphology: V-ANP
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Passive
Strong's no.: G1080 (γεννάω)
Meaning: To beget (of the male), (of the female) to bring forth, give birth to.
Joh 3:7 {Do} not μὴ wonder θαυμάσῃς that ὅτι I said εἶπόν to you, σοι ‘It is necessary for ‘Δεῖ you [all] ὑμᾶς to be born γεννηθῆναι from above.’ ἄνωθεν.
μη θαυμασης οτι ειπον σοι δει υμας γεννηθηναι ανωθεν
2) "Ye must be born again." (dei humas gennethenai anothen) "You all must be born from above," by a superior power and supernatural nature, by the quickening spirit, Joh_6:63; 2Co_3:6. Not by good works, not by reformation, not by or through baptism, not by church membership, etc. You see, Nicodemus and the Pharisees had tried all these kind of things, like many today, in vain; For salvation is not of works, Eph_2:9; Tit_3:5-6; Rom_11:6. Some hold that the phrase "born of water" refers to the water of artesian flow, the water of the Spirit, as used Joh_7:37-39. Yet the Holy Spirit, not water baptism, is the means of the new birth.
Sorry but the weight of the evidence is against you
and you use what is concerning believers to understand what Jesus is telling unbelievers
and ignoring scripture to boot
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 2:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There are no verses which teach man is a passive recipient of faith and John 6:29 is no exception
Rockson
Well-known member
Well then that's just another example of how preposterous and absurd your way of thinking has become. You have Paul the Apostle talking like Yoda on Star Wars. So you're talking like, "Work out your own salvation??......fear and trembling be yours!" Not only that the next verse 13 would cause that whole way of thinking to collapse!
For now to say "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do good his good pleasure" for ones doing things by Calvinistic irresistible grace fear and trembling would not be theirs anyway. If they had the potential to have that it would mean according to you God ordained them and willed them to be this way and that would go against your position God is willing in them in verse 13 the opposite!
So sorry but yours's is the theology of mumble jumbo and it scrambles people in two different directions at once causing great spiritual nauseation. God is not the author of anything like that.
Rockson
Well-known member
So for those who have an ear to hear what Paul is really saying it's basically this.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for understand this.....it's God working in you to inspire you and is seeking to lead you to be carrying out certain things he wants you to do. If you resist and disobey his leadings you should have great concern for ultimately you will have to answer to God for not being sensitive and quick to obey what he wants. We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ
This lines up totally as well with scriptures' like Heb 4:1 which says, "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." He wants you to enter into his rest and if we refuse to act on his word and not do so there again we have the idea of you should have fear and trembling for not doing so.
What this dear Calvinist on here is claiming is you don't do ANYTHING to obey God. He does it all. No offence and I'd like to say this carefully they should have great fear for even putting something like that out and I'm the best friend they've got in the world by telling them so. I can only trust and hope that they'll recant, change and give up their ridiculous position. It is truly totally nonsensical.
civic
Well-known member
Strawman alert
God saves the person who believes the gospel , receives Him/Christ as Lord by confession and repents of their sins and are forgiven for them becoming a child of God and are sealed by the Holy Spirit at regeneration.
Bible Basics 101. I would quote the scriptures above but you would just deny them anyways.
hope this helps !!!
