Refuting effectually caused faith

[Johann]

Contradictory statement.

Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and always have been. There is Supralapsarianismvs. Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. ‘The Supralapsarians hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians, that he permitted it’ (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues, including lapsarianism. The Swiss Calvinists who wrote the Helvetic Consensus Formula in 1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper (differing especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3 pointers, 2 pointers. In America Calvinists were divided into Old School and the New School. As we have seen, the Calvinists of England were divided in the 19th century.

Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and then refute it, there are Calvinists who will argue with you that you are misrepresenting Calvinism. It is not so much that you are misrepresenting Calvinism, though. You might be quoting directly from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. The problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism! There are Calvin Calvinists and Thomas Fuller Calvinists and Arthur W. Pink Calvinists and Presbyterian Calvinists and Baptist Calvinists and many other sorts of Calvinists. Many Calvinists have never read Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion for themselves. They are merely following someone who follows someone who allegedly follows Calvin (who, by his own admission, followed Augustine).

(4) God’s genuine desire for all to be saved: Watch this CLIP

(5) God’s permissive decree and his implication in bringing about moral evil: See <LINK>

(6) The “order salutis” (the temporal vs. logical order)

[5] More on this point is discussed HERE and HERE, with many references.



[6] See http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

https://soteriology101.com/2018/06/...divided among themselves and always have been.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So you disagree with the article?
I have plenty of the go to verses of Calvin-none of it makes sense in the exegesis/eisegesis of Calvin. HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT WITH WHAT STANDS PLAINLY WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE?

It's nowhere plainly written in scripture that we have the ability to respond to commands. You simply infer that there's no point in giving a command if people are unable to comply. You see no other motive. I told you another motive paraphrased from scripture, and you reject it.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Every man who ever lived coveted (and broke many other laws) at some point in his life. Obviously that command did not assume that people were able to comply.

The Scripture says things like, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved,” as Paul said to the Philippian jailor in Acts 16.

And it was the correct thing to say. But, as I said, just telling someone to believe on [trust in] the Lord Jesus Christ does not prove the hearer has the ability to do so without having been given the ability by God.

 

[Johann]

It's nowhere plainly written in scripture that we have the ability to respond to commands. You simply infer that there's no point in giving a command if people are unable to comply. You see no other motive. I told you another motive paraphrased from scripture, and you reject it.

Plenty- plenty examples of Imperatives WITH the ability to respond-why are there Imperatives recorded in Scriptures for believers without them "unable" to respond?
Would you like me to give you a source on the Imperatives?
Example
Pick up your cross-Imperative
Deny self-Imperative
Keep on following Me-Imperative

Why would Jesus issue a command and we are not able? I don't infer nothing, just read what the plain text is saying.

And it was the correct thing to say. But, as I said, just telling someone to believe on [trust in] the Lord Jesus Christ does not prove the hearer has the ability to do so without having been given the ability by God.

Correct-even demons believe-and they tremble but I would not go so far as to read regeneration precedes faith and the Total Inability as Calvin and his adherents still promulgate brother.

Believe, Trust, Faith, and Faithfulness in the Old Testament

I. Opening Statement

It needs to be stated that the use of this theological concept, so crucial to the NT, is not as clearly defined in the OT. It is surely there, but demonstrated in key selected passages and persons.

The OT blends

A. the individual and the community

B. the personal encounter and covenant obedience

Faith is both personal encounter and daily lifestyle! It is easier to describe in the life of a faithful follower than in a lexical form (i.e., word study). This personal aspect is best illustrated in

A. Abraham and his seed

B. David and Israel

These men met/encountered God and their lives were permanently changed (not perfect lives, but continuing faith). Testing revealed weaknesses and strengths of their faith encounter with God, but the intimate, trusting relationship continued through time! It was tested and refined, but it continued as evidenced by their devotion and lifestyle.



II. Main root used

A. אמן (BDB 52, KB 63)

1. verb

a. Qal stem – to support, to nourish (i.e., 2 Kgs. 10:1,5; Esther 2:7, the non-theological usage)

b. Niphal stem – to make sure or firm, to establish, to confirm, to be faithful or trustworthy

(1) of men, Isa. 8:2; 53:1; Jer. 40:14

(2) of things, Isa. 22:23

(3) of God, Deut. 7:9; Isa. 49:7; Jer. 42:5

c. Hiphil stem – to stand firm, to believe, to trust

(1) Abraham believed God, Gen. 15:6

(2) the Israelites in Egypt believed, Exod. 4:31; 14:31 (negated in Deut. 1:32)

(3) Israelites believed YHWH spoke through Moses, Exod. 19:9; Ps. 106:12,24

(4) Ahaz did not trust in God, Isa 7:9

(5) whoever believes in it/him, Isa. 28:16

(6) believe truths about God, Isa. 43:10-12

2. noun (masculine) – faithfulness (i.e., Deut. 32:20; Isa. 25:1; 26:2)

3. adverb – truly, verily, I agree, may it be so (cf. Deut. 27:15-26; 1 Kgs. 1:36; 1 Chr. 16:36; Isa. 65:16; Jer. 11:5; 28:6). This is the liturgical use of "amen" in the OT and NT.

B. אמת (BDB 54, KB 68) feminine noun, firmness, faithfulness, truth

1. of men, Isa. 10:20; 42:3; 48:1

2. of God, Exod. 34:6; Ps. 117:2; Isa. 38:18,19; 61:8

3. of truth, Deut. 32:4; 1 Kgs. 22:16; Ps. 33:4; 98:3; 100:5; 119:30; Jer. 9:5; Zech. 8:16

C. אמונה (BDB 53, KB 62), firmness, steadfastness, fidelity

1. of hands, Exod. 17:12

2. of times, Isa. 33:6

3. of humans, Jer. 5:3; 7:28; 9:2

4. of God, Ps. 40:11; 88:11; 89:1,2,5,8; 119:138



III. Paul’s use of this OT concept

A. Paul bases his new understanding of YHWH and the OT on his personal encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus (cf. Acts 9:1-19; 22:3-16; 26:9-18).

B. He found OT support for his new understanding in two key OT passages which use the root (אמן).

1. Gen. 15:6 – Abram’s personal encounter initiated by God (Genesis 12) resulted in an obedient life of faith (Genesis 12-22). Paul alludes to this in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.

2. Isa. 28:16 – those who believe in it (i.e., God’s tested and firmly placed cornerstone) will never be

a. Rom. 9:33, "put to shame" or "be disappointed"

b. Rom. 10:11, same as above

3. Hab. 2:4 – those who know the faithful God should live faithful lives (cf. Jer. 7:28). Paul uses this text in Rom. 1:17 and Gal. 3:11 (also note Heb. 10:38).



IV. Peter’s use of the OT concept

A. Peter combines

1. Isa. 8:14 – 1 Pet. 2:8 (stumbling block)

2. Isa. 28:16 – 1 Pet. 2:6 (cornerstone)

3. Ps. 118:22 – 1 Pet 2:7 (rejected stone)

B. He turns the unique language that describes Israel, "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession" from

1. Deut. 10:15; Isa. 43:21

2. Isa. 61:6; 66:21

3. Exod. 19:6; Deut. 7:6

and now uses it for the church’s faith in Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 2;5,9

V. John’s use of the concept

A. Its NT usage

The term "believed" is from the Greek term pisteuō. which can also be translated "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the noun does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the verb is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd’s commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13, 18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-22,31-32).

B. Its use with prepositions

1. eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus

a. into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)

b. into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45 48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)

c. into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)

d. into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)

e. into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)

f. into Light (John 12:36)

g. into God (John 14:1)

2. ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14

3. epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5, 24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6

4. the dative case with no preposition as in Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10

5. hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe

a. Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)

b. Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)

c. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)

d. Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)

e. Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)

f. Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)

g. Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)

h. Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)

i. Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)

j. We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)

k. Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)



VI. Conclusion

A. Biblical faith is the human response to a divine word/promise. God always initiates (i.e., John 6:44,65), but part of this divine communication is the need for humans to respond (i.e., see Special Topic: Covenant).

1. repentance (see Special Topic: )

2. faith/trust (see Special Topic: Faith, Believe, or Trust)

3. obedience

4. perseverance (see Special Topic: Perseverance)

B. Biblical faith is

1. a personal relationship (initial faith)

2. an affirmation of biblical truth (faith in God’s revelation, i.e., Scripture)

3. an appropriate obedient response to it (daily faithfulness)

Biblical faith is not a ticket to heaven or an insurance policy. It is a personal relationship. This is the purpose of creation, humans being made in the image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) of God. The issue is "intimacy." God desires fellowship, not a certain theological standing! But fellowship with a holy God demands that the children demonstrate the "family" characteristics (i.e., holiness, cf. Lev. 19:2; Matt. 5:48; 1 Pet. 1:15-16). The Fall (cf. Genesis 3) affected our ability to respond appropriately. Therefore, God acted on our behalf (cf. Ezek. 36:27-38), giving us a "new heart" and a "new spirit," which enables us through faith and repentance to fellowship with Him and obey Him!

All three are crucial. All three must be maintained. The goal is to know God (both Hebrew and Greek senses) and to reflect His character in our lives. The goal of faith is not heaven someday, but Christlikeness every day!

C. Human faithfulness is the result (NT), not the basis (OT) for a relationship with God: human’s faith in His faithfulness; human’s trust in His trustworthiness. The heart of the NT view of salvation is that humans must respond initially and continually to the grace and mercy of God, demonstrated in Christ. He has loved, He has sent, He has provided; we must respond in faith and faithfulness (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10)!

The faithful God wants a faithful people to reveal Himself to a faithless world and bring them to personal faith in Him.
Utley

Love this man.
I think you are aware of the different Calvinist cultus?
I still say we need to dig deeper-it is painful, but necessary.

 

[civic]

Plenty- plenty examples of Imperatives WITH the ability to respond-why are there Imperatives recorded in Scriptures for believers without them "unable" to respond?
Would you like me to give you a source on the Imperatives?
Example
Pick up your cross-Imperative
Deny self-Imperative
Keep on following Me-Imperative

Why would Jesus issue a command and we are not able? I don't infer nothing, just read what the plain text is saying.


Correct-even demons believe-and they tremble but I would not go so far as to read regeneration precedes faith and the Total Inability as Calvin and his adherents still promulgate brother.

Believe, Trust, Faith, and Faithfulness in the Old Testament

I. Opening Statement

It needs to be stated that the use of this theological concept, so crucial to the NT, is not as clearly defined in the OT. It is surely there, but demonstrated in key selected passages and persons.

The OT blends

A. the individual and the community

B. the personal encounter and covenant obedience

Faith is both personal encounter and daily lifestyle! It is easier to describe in the life of a faithful follower than in a lexical form (i.e., word study). This personal aspect is best illustrated in

A. Abraham and his seed

B. David and Israel

These men met/encountered God and their lives were permanently changed (not perfect lives, but continuing faith). Testing revealed weaknesses and strengths of their faith encounter with God, but the intimate, trusting relationship continued through time! It was tested and refined, but it continued as evidenced by their devotion and lifestyle.



II. Main root used

A. אמן (BDB 52, KB 63)

1. verb

a. Qal stem – to support, to nourish (i.e., 2 Kgs. 10:1,5; Esther 2:7, the non-theological usage)

b. Niphal stem – to make sure or firm, to establish, to confirm, to be faithful or trustworthy

(1) of men, Isa. 8:2; 53:1; Jer. 40:14

(2) of things, Isa. 22:23

(3) of God, Deut. 7:9; Isa. 49:7; Jer. 42:5

c. Hiphil stem – to stand firm, to believe, to trust

(1) Abraham believed God, Gen. 15:6

(2) the Israelites in Egypt believed, Exod. 4:31; 14:31 (negated in Deut. 1:32)

(3) Israelites believed YHWH spoke through Moses, Exod. 19:9; Ps. 106:12,24

(4) Ahaz did not trust in God, Isa 7:9

(5) whoever believes in it/him, Isa. 28:16

(6) believe truths about God, Isa. 43:10-12

2. noun (masculine) – faithfulness (i.e., Deut. 32:20; Isa. 25:1; 26:2)

3. adverb – truly, verily, I agree, may it be so (cf. Deut. 27:15-26; 1 Kgs. 1:36; 1 Chr. 16:36; Isa. 65:16; Jer. 11:5; 28:6). This is the liturgical use of "amen" in the OT and NT.

B. אמת (BDB 54, KB 68) feminine noun, firmness, faithfulness, truth

1. of men, Isa. 10:20; 42:3; 48:1

2. of God, Exod. 34:6; Ps. 117:2; Isa. 38:18,19; 61:8

3. of truth, Deut. 32:4; 1 Kgs. 22:16; Ps. 33:4; 98:3; 100:5; 119:30; Jer. 9:5; Zech. 8:16

C. אמונה (BDB 53, KB 62), firmness, steadfastness, fidelity

1. of hands, Exod. 17:12

2. of times, Isa. 33:6

3. of humans, Jer. 5:3; 7:28; 9:2

4. of God, Ps. 40:11; 88:11; 89:1,2,5,8; 119:138



III. Paul’s use of this OT concept

A. Paul bases his new understanding of YHWH and the OT on his personal encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus (cf. Acts 9:1-19; 22:3-16; 26:9-18).

B. He found OT support for his new understanding in two key OT passages which use the root (אמן).

1. Gen. 15:6 – Abram’s personal encounter initiated by God (Genesis 12) resulted in an obedient life of faith (Genesis 12-22). Paul alludes to this in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.

2. Isa. 28:16 – those who believe in it (i.e., God’s tested and firmly placed cornerstone) will never be

a. Rom. 9:33, "put to shame" or "be disappointed"

b. Rom. 10:11, same as above

3. Hab. 2:4 – those who know the faithful God should live faithful lives (cf. Jer. 7:28). Paul uses this text in Rom. 1:17 and Gal. 3:11 (also note Heb. 10:38).



IV. Peter’s use of the OT concept

A. Peter combines

1. Isa. 8:14 – 1 Pet. 2:8 (stumbling block)

2. Isa. 28:16 – 1 Pet. 2:6 (cornerstone)

3. Ps. 118:22 – 1 Pet 2:7 (rejected stone)

B. He turns the unique language that describes Israel, "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession" from

1. Deut. 10:15; Isa. 43:21

2. Isa. 61:6; 66:21

3. Exod. 19:6; Deut. 7:6

and now uses it for the church’s faith in Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 2;5,9

V. John’s use of the concept

A. Its NT usage

The term "believed" is from the Greek term pisteuō. which can also be translated "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the noun does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the verb is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd’s commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13, 18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-22,31-32).

B. Its use with prepositions

1. eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus

a. into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)

b. into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45 48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)

c. into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)

d. into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)

e. into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)

f. into Light (John 12:36)

g. into God (John 14:1)

2. ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14

3. epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5, 24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6

4. the dative case with no preposition as in Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10

5. hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe

a. Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)

b. Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)

c. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)

d. Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)

e. Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)

f. Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)

g. Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)

h. Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)

i. Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)

j. We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)

k. Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)



VI. Conclusion

A. Biblical faith is the human response to a divine word/promise. God always initiates (i.e., John 6:44,65), but part of this divine communication is the need for humans to respond (i.e., see Special Topic: Covenant).

1. repentance (see Special Topic: )

2. faith/trust (see Special Topic: Faith, Believe, or Trust)

3. obedience

4. perseverance (see Special Topic: Perseverance)

B. Biblical faith is

1. a personal relationship (initial faith)

2. an affirmation of biblical truth (faith in God’s revelation, i.e., Scripture)

3. an appropriate obedient response to it (daily faithfulness)

Biblical faith is not a ticket to heaven or an insurance policy. It is a personal relationship. This is the purpose of creation, humans being made in the image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) of God. The issue is "intimacy." God desires fellowship, not a certain theological standing! But fellowship with a holy God demands that the children demonstrate the "family" characteristics (i.e., holiness, cf. Lev. 19:2; Matt. 5:48; 1 Pet. 1:15-16). The Fall (cf. Genesis 3) affected our ability to respond appropriately. Therefore, God acted on our behalf (cf. Ezek. 36:27-38), giving us a "new heart" and a "new spirit," which enables us through faith and repentance to fellowship with Him and obey Him!

All three are crucial. All three must be maintained. The goal is to know God (both Hebrew and Greek senses) and to reflect His character in our lives. The goal of faith is not heaven someday, but Christlikeness every day!

C. Human faithfulness is the result (NT), not the basis (OT) for a relationship with God: human’s faith in His faithfulness; human’s trust in His trustworthiness. The heart of the NT view of salvation is that humans must respond initially and continually to the grace and mercy of God, demonstrated in Christ. He has loved, He has sent, He has provided; we must respond in faith and faithfulness (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10)!

The faithful God wants a faithful people to reveal Himself to a faithless world and bring them to personal faith in Him.
Utley

Love this man.
I think you are aware of the different Calvinist cultus?
I still say we need to dig deeper-it is painful, but necessary.

Yes otherwise Gods commands and promises become a lie without mans volition. Command implies ability.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why would Jesus issue a command and we are not able? I don't infer nothing, just read what the plain text is saying.

You just said it, yourself. That's the problem with your logic. You assume that it makes no sense to command something unless the hearer has the ability to comply. But, as I pointed out, that's easy to disprove. The OT law is full of commands yet nobody was EVER able to comply except Jesus. Therefore it is a non-sequitur to assume that giving a command means the receiver can comply.

 

[TomL]

It's nowhere plainly written in scripture that we have the ability to respond to commands. You simply infer that there's no point in giving a command if people are unable to comply. You see no other motive. I told you another motive paraphrased from scripture, and you reject it.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Every man who ever lived coveted (and broke many other laws) at some point in his life. Obviously that command did not assume that people were able to comply.



And it was the correct thing to say. But, as I said, just telling someone to believe on [trust in] the Lord Jesus Christ does not prove the hearer has the ability to do so without having been given the ability by God.

Scripture shows otherwise

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.





The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith

 

[brightfame52]

I see, you have not read the Scriptures-but you want to make your case with Gal 5.22?
This is a futile exercise-

One must be regenerated before they can believe, otherwise we are dead in sin, believing is an activity of Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

 

[Johann]

One must be regenerated before they can believe, otherwise we are dead in sin, believing is an activity of Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 - "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Matthew 22:37-38 - "Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment."

Matthew 6:33 - "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

Luke 9:23 - "Then He said to them all, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'"

1 Corinthians 10:31 - "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

Colossians 3:17 - "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."

Psalm 119:133 - "Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, and I shall answer Thee, That I may be justified."

Psalm 119:145 - "I call upon Thee, O Lord: give me understanding, and I shall keep Thy law."

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths."

Jeremiah 29:13 - "You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."

John 14:15 - "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

1 John 2:15 - "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

1 John 5:3 - "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."

2 Corinthians 5:15 - "And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who for their sake died and was raised again."

Marvel
Jn 3:12 If I told you earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Jn 5:28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

Jn 6:61-63 [61] But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? [62] Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? [63] It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.

Ye
*Jn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.”

*Mt 13:33-35 [33] He spoke another parable to them. “The Kingdom of Heaven is like yeast which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until it was all leavened.” [34] Jesus spoke all these things in parables to the multitudes; and without a parable, he didn’t speak to them, [35] that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.”

*Eph 4:22-24 [22] that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit, [23] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, [24] and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

*1Pe 1:22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently,

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? What is he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Ro 3:9-19 [9] What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. [10] As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one. [11] There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. [12] They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.” [13] “Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit.” “The poison of vipers is under their lips.” [14] “Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” [15] “Their feet are swift to shed blood. [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways. [17] The way of peace, they haven’t known.” [18] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” [19] Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

Ro 9:22-25 [22] What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory— [24] us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? [25] As he says also in Hosea, “I will call them ‘my people,’ which were not my people; and her ‘beloved,’ who was not beloved.”

Ro 12:1-2 [1] Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. [2] Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light,

Heb 12:14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord,

1Pe 1:14-16 [14] as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, [15] but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior, [16] because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Re 21:27 There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"μη θαυμασης" is the imperative form of "θαυμαζω" (to wonder), which is in the second person singular. It means "do not wonder" or "do not be surprised."

"οτι" is a conjunction introducing a subordinate clause.

"ειπον" is the first aorist active indicative of "λεγω" (to say), which means "I said" or "I have said."

"σοι" is the dative form of "συ" (you), indicating the direct object of the verb "ειπον."

"δει" is the third person singular aorist active indicative of "δεω" (to owe), which means "it is necessary" or "it is fitting."

"υμας" is the accusative plural form of "συ" (you), indicating the object of the verb "γεννηθηναι."

"γεννηθηναι" is the aorist passive infinitive of "γενναω" (to be born), which means "to be born" or "to be generated."

"ανωθεν" is an adverb meaning "from above" or "again."

Exegetical Explanation:
In this verse, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be born again (γεννηθηναι ανωθεν) in order to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus is using a metaphorical expression to convey the idea that Nicodemus needs a spiritual rebirth, not just a physical one. The phrase "ανωθεν" emphasizes the supernatural and divine nature of this rebirth.

The verb "γεννηθηναι" is in the passive voice, indicating that the action of being born is being performed on Nicodemus, rather than by him. This emphasizes the idea that salvation is a gift from God, rather than something that can be achieved through human effort.
The phrase "μη θαυμασης" is a warning to Nicodemus not to be surprised or amazed by Jesus' words. Jesus is not saying something that is impossible or unbelievable; rather, he is saying something that is necessary and true.
Overall, this verse is a key part of Jesus' teaching on salvation and the nature of God's kingdom. It emphasizes the importance of spiritual rebirth and the need for a supernatural transformation in order to enter God's kingdom.

 

[TomL]

One must be regenerated before they can believe, otherwise we are dead in sin, believing is an activity of Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Once again unbelievers do not have the fruit of the Spirit

The fruit of the Spirit is for those in Christ

John 15:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Fruit of the Spirit. Expression taken from Galatians 5:22, 23. As listed there, this fruit is the manifest evidence one may expect from a life in which the Spirit of God is living and reigning. Jesus also implied that the character of a life can be determined. In the context of Matthew 7, the test for false prophets is, among other things, the kind of life they live. Consequently, even though Jesus did prohibit censorious criticism of others by his followers (Mt 7:1), he encouraged fruit inspection. The secret to exhibiting spiritual fruit in abundance is described in John 12:24. Using as an illustration a grain of wheat sown in the ground, Jesus encourages death to self and to the desires of the old nature and resurrection to the new life of “much fruit.”

Wesley L. Gerig, “Fruit of the Spirit,” Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988), 818.

 

[brightfame52]

Once again unbelievers do not have the fruit of the Spirit

The fruit of the Spirit is for those in Christ

John 15:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Fruit of the Spirit. Expression taken from Galatians 5:22, 23. As listed there, this fruit is the manifest evidence one may expect from a life in which the Spirit of God is living and reigning. Jesus also implied that the character of a life can be determined. In the context of Matthew 7, the test for false prophets is, among other things, the kind of life they live. Consequently, even though Jesus did prohibit censorious criticism of others by his followers (Mt 7:1), he encouraged fruit inspection. The secret to exhibiting spiritual fruit in abundance is described in John 12:24. Using as an illustration a grain of wheat sown in the ground, Jesus encourages death to self and to the desires of the old nature and resurrection to the new life of “much fruit.”

Wesley L. Gerig, “Fruit of the Spirit,” Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988), 818.

One must be regenerated before they can believe, otherwise we are dead in sin, believing is an activity of Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

In addition, ones believing is the effect of Gods super creating power, the same power He exercised when He raised Jesus from the Dead Eph 1:19-20

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

To say that believing is according to mans freewill is to usurp the very Power of God which is the reason why the elect believe. Hence believing isnt of ourselves.

 

[brightfame52]

The freewiller is guilty of arrogating to themselves a moral natural ability [believing in Christ for Salvation] instead of acknowledging it ;[believing in Christ] is to the Honor of the Sanctifying work and Power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[TomL]

One must be regenerated before they can believe, otherwise we are dead in sin, believing is an activity of Spiritual life, its the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

In addition, ones believing is the effect of Gods super creating power, the same power He exercised when He raised Jesus from the Dead Eph 1:19-20

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

To say that believing is according to mans freewill is to usurp the very Power of God which is the reason why the elect believe. Hence believing isnt of ourselves.

um one must believe before being made alive

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 3:36 (ESV) — 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 6:53 (ESV) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

 

[TomL]

The freewiller is guilty of arrogating to themselves a moral natural ability [believing in Christ for Salvation] instead of acknowledging it ;[believing in Christ] is to the Honor of the Sanctifying work and Power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

um those are two different things

 

[brightfame52]

um one must believe before being made alive

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 3:36 (ESV) — 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 6:53 (ESV) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

In addition, ones believing is the effect of Gods super creating power, the same power He exercised when He raised Jesus from the Dead Eph 1:19-20

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

To say that believing is according to mans freewill is to usurp the very Power of God which is the reason why the elect believe. Hence believing isnt of ourselves.

 

[brightfame52]

um those are two different things

The freewiller is guilty of arrogating to themselves a moral natural ability [believing in Christ for Salvation] instead of acknowledging it ;[believing in Christ] is to the Honor of the Sanctifying work and Power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[TomL]

The freewiller is guilty of arrogating to themselves a moral natural ability [believing in Christ for Salvation] instead of acknowledging it ;[believing in Christ] is to the Honor of the Sanctifying work and Power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You conflate two different things

 

[TomL]

In addition, ones believing is the effect of Gods super creating power, the same power He exercised when He raised Jesus from the Dead Eph 1:19-20

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

To say that believing is according to mans freewill is to usurp the very Power of God which is the reason why the elect believe. Hence believing isnt of ourselves.

sorry that verse speaks to those who have believed, not the making of believers out of those who are unbelievers

 

[civic]

Scripture shows otherwise

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.





The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith

Oops so much for his fallacious argument you exposed with the many passages from scripture that refutes his false premise. Well done once again !!!

 

[TomL]

Oops so much for his fallacious argument you exposed with the many passages from scripture that refutes his false premise. Well done once again !!!

It's hard to understand how Calvinists hold to their doctrine in the face of such clear scripture

 

[Rockson]

It's hard to understand how Calvinists hold to their doctrine in the face of such clear scripture

It's sort of like a great wave of truth comes in and sweeps away their theological construct and they're left holding the door handles.....but they don't know what to do with them as they take them no where.

Some posts in the last little while show this. Think of the word "believing" It seems they don't know what to do with it as they really don't think it's necessary to believe anything to cause salvation to be communicated and delivered to their spirits. It's all been done for them BEFORE believing.....so what do they do with believing. They don't come forth with a coherent agreement that makes sense. At least to me it's like they respond with a, " Well I don't know, UM, UM.UM......" So they've got a handle for a door but no way to use it.