Refuting effectually caused faith

[Rockson]

The news about God is good because God’s character is good.

In our weekly home group Bible study we were talking about this subject. What was the question that needed to be addressed in Gen 3. If A+ E would stay faithful yes but it came down to this. Is God good and can the revelation of his word be trusted above the need to see by actual experience that he was right. He said they would surely die or their spirits would degenerate and it effected the physical creation as well.

Should be noted that before the test was allowed God gave the demonstration of his rich goodness towards them. He created a whole world, for them to have Dominion over....the heavens even the heavens are the Lord's but the earth has he given to the sons of men. He gave them beauty, peace, well being, love and all things were wonderful. It was called VERY GOOD.

So now having rightly established that .....the test was allowed. That was really the question Satan focused on.....putting a question mark on the goodness of God...."For he knows that in the day you eat of it you'll be like him! In other words he's being selfish! You can't trust him! You will not SURELY DIE! It's all a lie!"

So what A+E embraced was a wordily philosophy that experience is your best teacher. Set aside everything you know that God is good and go for it! Take the plunge! So they chose not to go by revelation knowledge but went by something might appeal to their natural flesh.

 

[Begotten]

In our weekly home group Bible study we were talking about this subject. What was the question that needed to be addressed in Gen 3. If A+ E would stay faithful yes but it came down to this. Is God good and can the revelation of his word be trusted above the need to see by actual experience that he was right. He said they would surely die or their spirits would degenerate and it effected the physical creation as well.

Should be noted that before the test was allowed God gave the demonstration of his rich goodness towards them. He created a whole world, for them to have Dominion over....the heavens even the heavens are the Lord's but the earth has he given to the sons of men. He gave them beauty, peace, well being, love and all things were wonderful. It was called VERY GOOD.

So now having rightly established that .....the test was allowed. That was really the question Satan focused on.....putting a question mark on the goodness of God...."For he knows that in the day you eat of it you'll be like him! In other words he's being selfish! You can't trust him! You will not SURELY DIE! It's all a lie!"

So what A+E embraced was a wordily philosophy that experience is your best teacher. Set aside everything you know that God is good and go for it! Take the plunge! So they chose not to go by revelation knowledge but went by something might appeal to their natural flesh.

That's awesome. We do one every week also called Life Groups. Our topic was on 1st John and we mentioned some of the points that you brought up in your post. Interesting stuff. Satan's' still Telling the same old lies and we know he only comes to rob kill and destroy. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities. That's why it's important to put on the whole armor of God. Stay in the word and abide in Jesus. Being led by the Holy Spirit. They were all topics We touched on In this week's life group.

I attached a file containing the homework that we covered This week just to see how it works.

 

[TomL]

Sure I know by reading what Jesus said and did in the gospels and what the Apostles taught about Gods love.

It’s the one thing I can know with full assurance.

Yes Jesus is our example of what God is like.

John 14:8–10 (ESV) — 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith to believe the Gospel is the fruit of the Spirit !

Faith to believe the Gospel is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

In fact its part of ones Sanctification, 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

For the word faith in Gal 5:22 and the word belief in 2 Thess 2:13 they are both the same greek noun pistis, and as it can be seen this belief of the Truth is the fruitful effect of the Sanctification of the Spirit !

See how scripture confirms scripture ? Therefore one is a liar who says that faith to believe the Gospel in Salvation, to say its a natural ability, or that its in man by nature, for here in 2 Thess 2:13 faith in the Gospel Truth is clearly seen to be part of the Sanctification of the Spirit, it also answers to Christ's Intercession here Jn 17:17

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The Sanctifying work of the Spirit is the answer to this request of Christ to His Father ! So this also can be looked upon as the fruit of Christ's Intercession !

 

[TomL]

Faith to believe the Gospel is the fruit of the Spirit !

Faith to believe the Gospel is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

In fact its part of ones Sanctification, 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

For the word faith in Gal 5:22 and the word belief in 2 Thess 2:13 they are both the same greek noun pistis, and as it can be seen this belief of the Truth is the fruitful effect of the Sanctification of the Spirit !

See how scripture confirms scripture ? Therefore one is a liar who says that faith to believe the Gospel in Salvation, to say its a natural ability, or that its in man by nature, for here in 2 Thess 2:13 faith in the Gospel Truth is clearly seen to be part of the Sanctification of the Spirit, it also answers to Christ's Intercession here Jn 17:17

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The Sanctifying work of the Spirit is the answer to this request of Christ to His Father ! So this also can be looked upon as the fruit of Christ's Intercession !

Nope

One does not have the fruit of the spirit unless he has the spirit, which unbelievers cannot have

John 14:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

Why do you keep ignoring scripture?

 

[civic]

Nope

One does not have the fruit of the spirit unless he has the spirit, which unbelievers cannot have

John 14:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

Why do you keep ignoring scripture?

Amen

 

[TomL]

Amen

Yes it is absurd that one attributes to unbelievers the fruit of the Spirit. A branch apart from its vine can bear no fruit and dies

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes it is absurd that one attributes to unbelievers the fruit of the Spirit. A branch apart from its vine can bear no fruit and dies

Yeah... yeah... fruit doesn't matter to Calvinism.

Torns are preferred.......

 

[TomL]

Yeah... yeah... fruit doesn't matter to Calvinism.

Torns are preferred.......

LOL

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Romans 12:3-5 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY man the measure of FAITH.

Every human has been given an ability to determine God & his truths and it is that faith that is acted upon when hearing the gospel of Christ & his work.

Faith IS a fruit of the Spirit but one FIRST must be reconciled to God to receive the Spirit & his fruit, not before he is reconciled !
The faith acted upon is the measure God has given to all to believe, else he would be a puppet master creating man without the ability to chose as Calvin corrupted into a false doctrine of T.U.L.I.P !

 

[TomL]

Romans 12:3-5 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY man the measure of FAITH.

Every human has been given an ability to determine God & his truths and it is that faith that is acted upon when hearing the gospel of Christ & his work.

Faith IS a fruit of the Spirit but one FIRST must be reconciled to God to receive the Spirit & his fruit, not before he is reconciled !
The faith acted upon is the measure God has given to all to believe, else he would be a puppet master creating man without the ability to chose as Calvin corrupted into a false doctrine of T.U.L.I.P !

Yes one must have faith to have the spirit who produces the fruit in us

Galatians 3:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[Tranquil]

Nope

One does not have the fruit of the spirit unless he has the spirit, which unbelievers cannot have

John 14:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

Why do you keep ignoring scripture?

Exactly right. That was my first thought. One needs to be saved before you develop the fruit of the spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to live in us when we receive Jesus and are born again of the Spirit. We cannot very well expect the Holt Spirit to pour out through us until He is living in us.

 

[Obadiah]

In Ephesians 5:15–20, the apostle Paul teaches believers how to experience a holy relationship with God—how to live for Him, obey Him, and discover His will as we serve Him. He writes, “So be careful how you live. Don’t live like fools, but like those who are wise. . . . Don’t act thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do. Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts. And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”

How can I be filled with the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Is the filling / infilling of the Holy Spirit a one-time event or a continual process?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[TomL]

Exactly right. That was my first thought. One needs to be saved before you develop the fruit of the spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to live in us when we receive Jesus and are born again of the Spirit. We cannot very well expect the Holt Spirit to pour out through us until He is living in us.

Yep

 

[brightfame52]

Its plainly stated that Faith is not of ourselves, but its the Gift of God, and yet men deny it still, Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Also,

. When the Apostle Peter made a glorious profession of the Lord, acknowledging him to be the Son of God, Christ answered him and said unto him, “blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matt.16:17

True Faith in Christ isnt natural folks. Its from a Spiritual source not found in the flesh.

 

[TomL]

Its plainly stated that Faith is not of ourselves, but its the Gift of God, and yet men deny it still, Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Also,

. When the Apostle Peter made a glorious profession of the Lord, acknowledging him to be the Son of God, Christ answered him and said unto him, “blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matt.16:17

True Faith in Christ isnt natural folks. Its from a Spiritual source not found in the flesh.

Nope it states salvation is not of yourself

salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is salvation which

is not of yourself

and not of works

It would be quite absurd to argue faith is not the results of works as one ever argues that

but the Jews mostly believed in salvation by works


God is not going to express faith for you

 

[brightfame52]

Faith that has to do with Salvation, which accompanies Salvation, purifies the heart, so it cant be of ourselves, the flesh Acts 15:7-9

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now if Faith is from the unregenerate natural man, which it isn't, that man can boast along these lines Prov 20:9
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

But thats exactly what people are saying, who they are saved by their Faith

 

[brightfame52]

Faith requires spiritual understanding, but yet we by nature prior to regeneration are described here Eph 4:18

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Now Faith comes by hearing and understanding the word spiritually Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[TomL]

Faith that has to do with Salvation, which accompanies Salvation, purifies the heart, so it cant be of ourselves, the flesh Acts 15:7-9

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now if Faith is from the unregenerate natural man, which it isn't, that man can boast along these lines Prov 20:9
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

But thats exactly what people are saying, who they are saved by their Faith

Faith precedes salvation and is the instrumental cause of it

Indeed the gentiles believed as a result they were given the Holy Spirit, had their heart purified by faith and were saved

Finally you show your lack of understanding for it is not faith of itself which causes the purification, God does.

Faith is just the instrumental cause God the ultimate cause uses in effecting the cleansing

 

[TomL]

Faith requires spiritual understanding, but yet we by nature prior to regeneration are described here Eph 4:18

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Now Faith comes by hearing and understanding the word spiritually Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Um the unregenerate heard , received the word with joy and believed

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

refuting your claim