Refuting effectually caused faith

The Rogue Tomato said:
If scripture said God chooses the elect because they are somehow better than other people, you would be correct. But that is nowhere in scripture.

We who believe in divine election have nothing about which to boast. I have no idea why God chose to save me. I was an evangelical atheist and hated Christianity into my 30s. I even played records worshiping Baal as a DJ in a Christian town. Then, even as a Christian, I have failed in life in countless ways. I raised my children alone, and they are now immoral atheists who hate me. God certainly didn't change and save me because I had some special potential, that's for sure.

The key phrase in your accusation is "for some strange unknown reason". How is that something about which to boast? No, boasting is excluded entirely. Yes, in my case especially, it is for some strange unknown reason. It makes no sense whatsoever, but I thank God and give him 100% of the credit and Glory that he saved a wretch like me.
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The issue Rogue is with how you believe you were chosen and others were not. Your story is not unique. Everyone God saves has a struggle with life. This is common to man. Common. The idea that God chose some at the expense of others is contrary to any thoughts of an equally benevolent God that will do the same for anyone else with the same "common" story as you.

I'm not discounting your claim to Grace. Just allow that same Grace for anyone else in your theology. As long as you do that, I don't have a problem with preaching that Gospel of equal application to humanity.

I think you realize you can't say you believe in the equal application of Grace to humanity.
 
TomL said:
sorry unbelievers are not regenerated or given the Spirit

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
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Wrong, unbelievers Christ died for are regenerated by the Spirit and given the gift/fruit of Faith, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit
 
brightfame52 said:
Wrong, unbelievers Christ died for are regenerated by the Spirit and given the gift/fruit of Faith, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit
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Sorry you claimed but never provide any proof for it

in the meantime, you ignore the fact unbelievers do not receive the Spirit and that faith precedes the impartation of life-regeneration
 
TomL said:
Sorry you claimed but never provide any proof for it

in the meantime, you ignore the fact unbelievers do not receive the Spirit and that faith precedes the impartation of life-regeneration
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I dont have any proof for you, I just state the scriptures I have already stated, it doesnt matter if its proof to you.
 
brightfame52 said:
Faith is from God, doesnt matter, its up to Him whether or not its for conversion or service. The thing you need to know man doesnt have it by nature in any event.
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Nonsense. Faith is evident in nature. Men trust the wrong things. That is faith. Trusting what you don't fully understand. It is the very fabric of our human existence.

It is why man can naturally express faith in the Gospel. The Gospel is preached from man to man. Faith to faith. Revelation through a human conversation.

Tell me, I really wish you would pay attention to me here.... Give me 5 mins of your mind.....

The reprobate know God. They know Him as God. Yet, they reject Him as God. I know you believe this. It is what the Scriptures teach.

How then do you still insist that such knowledge is Spiritual? They have not the Spirit and they have not been regenerated but they "KNOW the Truth". God has "showed it to them so they are without excuse"????

Just give me 5 mins of that mind you have. Just consider the obvious here. Just think. Think. Forget about what you believe you know or what someone has told you..... Just think.

The natural knowledge of the reprobate that knows the Truth yet rejects the Truth is proof that you're wrong.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Nonsense. Faith is evident in nature. Men trust the wrong things. That is faith. Trusting what you don't fully understand. It is the very fabric of our human existence.

It is why man can naturally express faith in the Gospel. The Gospel is preached from man to man. Faith to faith. Revelation through a human conversation.

Tell me, I really wish you would pay attention to me here.... Give me 5 mins of your mind.....

The reprobate know God. They know Him as God. Yet, they reject Him as God. I know you believe this. It is what the Scriptures teach.

How then do you still insist that such knowledge is Spiritual? They have not the Spirit and they have not been regenerated but they "KNOW the Truth". God has "showed it to them so they are without excuse"????

Just give me 5 mins of that mind you have. Just consider the obvious here. Just think. Think. Forget about what you believe you know or what someone has told you..... Just think.

The natural knowledge of the reprobate that knows the Truth yet rejects the Truth is proof that you're wrong.
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No its not nonsense. God gives Faith for Salvation and or service. Nothing about the Christian life is of man
 
brightfame52 said:
I dont have any proof for you, I just state the scriptures I have already stated, it doesnt matter if its proof to you.
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You never provided any scripture that actually speak of eternal justification

and you ignore a number which refute it

Galatians 2:16 (NIV) — 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

One must believe in Christ to be justified

Ephesians 2:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

These last two are not the marks of a justified man
 
TomL said:
You never provided any scripture that actually speak of eternal justification

and you ignore a number which refute it

Galatians 2:16 (NIV) — 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

One must believe in Christ to be justified

Ephesians 2:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

These last two are not the marks of a justified man
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Yes I have, you might not think so, I cant prove scripture truth to you, thats not in my ability
 
praise_yeshua said:
The issue Rogue is with how you believe you were chosen and others were not. Your story is not unique. Everyone God saves has a struggle with life. This is common to man. Common. The idea that God chose some at the expense of others is contrary to any thoughts of an equally benevolent God that will do the same for anyone else with the same "common" story as you.
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So you say, but you are simply filtering your theology through what you imagine a loving God should be like. That's a big mistake.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!"

You think you have traced out his paths, and that is pure hubris.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes I have, you might not think so, I cant prove scripture truth to you, thats not in my ability
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If there is any truth to your claim then point out where.

If you can not do, so I will have to assume you are not speaking truth

Logically so should anyone reading
 
brightfame52 said:
I have shown you plenty of Truth but you dont see it, I cant help that, God had to give me understanding
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I do not see any quotes

Why?

If there is any truth to your claim then point out where.

If you can not do, so I will have to assume you are not speaking truth

Logically so should anyone reading
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
So you say, but you are simply filtering your theology through what you imagine a loving God should be like. That's a big mistake.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!"

You think you have traced out his paths, and that is pure hubris.
Click to expand...
I didn't try to trace out "His path." It is common for men to appeal to some "mystery" when they know they are claiming God's Grace for themselves while denying it to others
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
So you say, but you are simply filtering your theology through what you imagine a loving God should be like. That's a big mistake.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!"

You think you have traced out his paths, and that is pure hubris.
Click to expand...
God tells us in many placed what His love is, looks like, acts like and Jesus demonstrates that for us in numerous places. The Apostles also taught what Gods love is like in their writings.
 
civic said:
God tells us in many placed what His love is, looks like, acts like and Jesus demonstrates that for us in numerous places. The Apostles also taught what Gods love is like in their writings.
Click to expand...

Yes, God is love. The hubris is in thinking you know what a loving God would do. You don't. He has purposes you couldn't possibly understand. None of us can.

"“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts."
 

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