Refuting effectually caused faith

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm telling you, you could make this forum section much easier to read if you're just honest.

One side: ME ME ME, I believed of my own free will! I'm smarter, wiser, and better than those who chose not to believe!!
Other side: God, God, God. God chose me according to His good pleasure. Nothing good in me had anything to do with it!!

 

[TomL]

I'm telling you, you could make this forum section much easier to read if you're just honest.

One side: ME ME ME, I believed of my own free will! I'm smarter, wiser, and better than those who chose not to believe!!
Other side: God, God, God. God chose me according to His good pleasure. Nothing good in me had anything to do with it!!

Is that what you imagine non Calvinists hold to?

I see it as a stereotype Calvinist would like to believe.

Rather the non Calvinist Side God is love and is most glorified by his love for his enemies

the other side Calvinism God is most glorified for his determination of his enemies

 

[brightfame52]

Faith increases. We are definitely are gifted certain gifts relative to faith.

You do realize that you're appeal to faith that has varying forms of application. Some were gifted faith to perform miracles. Some were gifted faith to endless seek God in prayer. These gifts vary and all relative to how we fit together in the "Body of Christ".

Which pretty much destroys how YOU ARE trying to apply the gift of faith relative to "Spiritual knowledge."

It really is nonsensical the way you appeal these "types" of faith.

Faith increases if its the Lords will. Notice the father asked the Lord for that blessing Mark 9:24

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Is that what you imagine non Calvinists hold to?

Not non Calvinists. Free willers. People who claim they believed and are saved because they made the right free will choice. And the unsaved are people who didn't make the right free will choice. This means the hinge and turning point of man's salvation is man. God may offer it, but man does the choosing, and therefore deserves the initial credit. It really is a self-centered, prideful soteriology.

 

[brightfame52]

Not non Calvinists. Free willers. People who claim they believed and are saved because they made the right free will choice. And the unsaved are people who didn't make the right free will choice. This means the hinge and turning point of man's salvation is man. God may offer it, but man does the choosing, and therefore deserves the initial credit. It really is a self-centered, prideful soteriology.

Well stated ! It exalts man

 

[Rockson]

One side: ME ME ME, I believed of my own free will!

Of course you use this for a mocking effect and you folk use this type of rhetoric in such an extreme unjustified way it's ridiculous. I'd say most if not all of people that affirm man has free will NEVER take that to mean you can just will anything you want. eg God says there's ramifications for not receiving the grace of God. Doesn't matter how much one wills they wont be punished ....they will be. Point.

I'm smarter, wiser, and better than those who chose not to believe!!

Well they ARE choosing to be smarter and wiser then one's who do not believe and receive. Did you not ever read where Jesus talked about one building their house on the rock or on the sand? Aren't the ones building on the rock choosing to be smarter and wiser? If not then what are they being?

As for Non Calvinists claiming they're better than anybody else.....I can't believe I'm reading this from a Calvinist. It is YOUS who are the ones claiming for some strange unknown reason God has classified you as better and of more value then others he chooses not to save! Absolutely stunning that you can seek to lay this charge towards others. Sorry but Calvinists are a 100 fold more guilty of this then anybody else.

 

[Rockson]

Other side: God, God, God. God chose me according to His good pleasure. Nothing good in me had anything to do with it!!

In my estimation there is NO WAY a Calvinist can actually believe it wasn't for the reason there was not a good thing in them. You're premise is there was something that God found in you as desirable over others or why else would he allow you to have eternal bliss and another is tormented?

If you're going to hold to Calvinism you can seek to fool others about your claim but you'll never ever do it to me. I'd trust and hope other wouldn't be taken in by what I consider to be a false front. It seems to me you've got it all window dressed that you assert it's because no good thing in you but I have trouble believing you really believe that. As I say I don't even believe it's possible for you to believe that.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

To be born of God. The word of is the prep ek meaning out from God, its the same prep John used earlier describing who believes in Jesus, those who had been born of God Jn 1:13

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of ek God.

So your: "of God" = "Born again and infilled by the Holy Spirit" - i.e. a "Christian".

In which case you're inaccurate. God CAN, and DOES speak to whomever He chooses, whenever he Chooses, regardless of the person's "SPiritual condition". NOBODY in the OLD Testament (by your definition) was "of God".

 

[brightfame52]

So your: "of God" = "Born again and infilled by the Holy Spirit" - i.e. a "Christian".

In which case you're inaccurate. God CAN, and DOES speak to whomever He chooses, whenever he Chooses, regardless of the person's "SPiritual condition". NOBODY in the OLD Testament (by your definition) was "of God".

Sir what in the world are you talking about. I simply stated, to be of God means to be born of God

 

[TomL]

Not non Calvinists. Free willers. People who claim they believed and are saved because they made the right free will choice. And the unsaved are people who didn't make the right free will choice. This means the hinge and turning point of man's salvation is man. God may offer it, but man does the choosing, and therefore deserves the initial credit. It really is a self-centered, prideful soteriology.

Based upon what you state I would have to believe you do not understand faith

Faith is a rejection of all self effort and instead depending on another for your salvation.

not trust in your decision

 

[TomL]

Faith increases if its the Lords will. Notice the father asked the Lord for that blessing Mark 9:24

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

Which unbelievers do not have

Hello

 

[TomL]

Sir what in the world are you talking about. I simply stated, to be of God means to be born of God

Provide proof for that claim under the old covenant

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Sir what in the world are you talking about. I simply stated, to be of God means to be born of God

Well, since you described a "CHristian" in your answer, why not just say so??

 

[brightfame52]

Which unbelievers do not have

Hello

Correct until they are regenerated by the Spirit, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

 

[brightfame52]

Well, since you described a "CHristian" in your answer, why not just say so??

Again Sir what in the world are you talking about. I simply stated, to be of God means to be born of God. Jesus says this about who hears the word of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[TomL]

Correct until they are regenerated by the Spirit, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

sorry unbelievers are not regenerated or given the Spirit

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

sorry unbelievers are not regenerated or given the Spirit

So, since EVERYBODY is an "unbeliever", nobody is ever Born again / Saved????

 

[TomL]

So, since EVERYBODY is an "unbeliever", nobody is ever Born again / Saved????

At one time

but when they become a believer they receive the holy Spirit and are regenerated through the indwelling Spirit

 

[praise_yeshua]

Faith increases if its the Lords will. Notice the father asked the Lord for that blessing Mark 9:24

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

You're ignoring what I said.

The faith you're referencing is a relative to service. Not regeneration.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

As for Non Calvinists claiming they're better than anybody else.....I can't believe I'm reading this from a Calvinist. It is YOUS who are the ones claiming for some strange unknown reason God has classified you as better and of more value then others he chooses not to save! Absolutely stunning that you can seek to lay this charge towards others. Sorry but Calvinists are a 100 fold more guilty of this then anybody else.

If scripture said God chooses the elect because they are somehow better than other people, you would be correct. But that is nowhere in scripture.

We who believe in divine election have nothing about which to boast. I have no idea why God chose to save me. I was an evangelical atheist and hated Christianity into my 30s. I even played records worshiping Baal as a DJ in a Christian town. Then, even as a Christian, I have failed in life in countless ways. I raised my children alone, and they are now immoral atheists who hate me. God certainly didn't change and save me because I had some special potential, that's for sure.

The key phrase in your accusation is "for some strange unknown reason". How is that something about which to boast? No, boasting is excluded entirely. Yes, in my case especially, it is for some strange unknown reason. It makes no sense whatsoever, but I thank God and give him 100% of the credit and Glory that he saved a wretch like me.