One God in Three Persons

You post so much stuff that it makes it difficult for me to engage. Let's look at the New Testament usage of firstborn or first begotten because that's where Jesus is at.

It is false that firstborn...


Go ahead and take a look. Every place the word firstborn is used in the NT it implies a beginning and being created.


Not in Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:6.
 
You post so much stuff that it makes it difficult for me to engage. Let's look at the New Testament usage of firstborn or first begotten because that's where Jesus is at.

It is false that firstborn...
Nope-it is not a false assertion
Go ahead and take a look. Every place the word firstborn is used in the NT it implies a beginning and being created.
No offense-but Bible Hub is not my go to.




A much better site and can give you more-should you wish.
Shalom
Johann.
 
I hope you listened to the video clip

I don't care for Mike Winger a whole lot. He's long winded. I did brows the video before and he's onto the JW - Mormon + demonization page just like the rest of them.
 
I don't care for Mike Winger a whole lot. He's long winded. I did brows the video before and he's onto the JW - Mormon + demonization page just like the rest of them.
No-he is not demonizing any denomination-just exposing the errors-nothing wrong with that, wouldn't you think?
Are you here to learn, or do you want instant mash and potatoes-you fire a question-and I have to give you a one, or two liner answer?

Doesn't work like that brother.
Shalom
Johann.
 
2 Corinthians 10:5
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2Co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.


Good quote @Fred-we are in a warfare.
Johann.
 
No-he is not demonizing any denomination-just exposing the errors-nothing wrong with that, wouldn't you think?
Are you here to learn, or do you want instant mash and potatoes-you fire a question-and I have to give you a one, or two liner answer?

Doesn't work like that brother.
Shalom
Johann.
I have a real problem with one Christian SLANDERING the other in the faith. I can't deal with it. That's one of many big reasons why Christianity is going downhill. The outside world doesn't see - Catholic and Protestant - or JW and Mormon. To many outsiders their view of Christianity (typically an unfavorable view) is influenced by the Catholic the pope Francis and the Protestant Pope John Macarthur ...and the like. Christians have become Christianity's worst enemy.

Salvation is a matter of the heart - your denomination does not condemn you.

Actually, I don't care for any of today's televangelist of sorts.
 
Scripture does not teach that Christ came into existence at his birth or that he was a created being, as some errantly teach. He always existed. Many Scriptures teach this: Micah 5:2 says, “As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah— from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.” Micah predicted that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem and that he would be the future king of Israel. However, Micah says that he had existed from “the distant past” or “ancient times” (NIV). Isaiah 9:6 says, “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah predicted that a child would be born who would be called “Everlasting Father,” which means that this person, though born in time, had existed forever. In fact, Jesus said something similar about himself in John 8:58, which caused him to be mocked. He said, “… I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!” When Christ said this, it was not just a reference to his preexistence, but also his deity. When God introduced himself to Israel during their slavery in Egypt, he introduced himself by the name “I Am” (Ex 3:14) and so did Christ. Christ has always existed, since he is God.

Christ’s Deity
As mentioned, not only has Christ always existed, he has eternally existed as God. This is the central aspect of Christ’s person, which many have questioned, struggled with, and denied. Certainly, his deity and eternality are hard to fathom. Yet, this is exactly what Scripture teaches. The author of Hebrews gives God the Father’s testimony about his Son in Hebrews 1:8, saying, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.” In the context, the author of Hebrews argues for the greatness of Christ by comparing him to angels. He does this by quoting God’s words about the Son in Psalm 45:6. God the Father calls the Son, “God,” which God never said about an angel.

In addition, John 1:1-3 says,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

John gives Jesus the title, “the Word,” which means that Christ is the communication of God—the way we get to know more about God and his will. Then John says that “the Word” was “with God,” “was fully God,” and also that the Word created all things. This is a clear declaration of Christ’s deity.

Paul makes the same declaration about Christ in Colossians 1:15-16:
Amen! Isaiah 9:6. which Johann just quoted tells us that Isaiah called the future Messiah "God", specifically Mighty God and the Everlasting Father. The wise men KNEW that the ONE they were looking for WAS GOD, which is why they worshiped Him and brought precious gifts for Him. You don't worship someone who is not God. Under the Mosaic covenant given only to the Jews, you could be executed for doing so.
 
Mathew 28:18 doesn't imply Jesus has the same 'power' God has. When the word ALL - especially 'pas', is used without the article it means "every kind of power." Jesus is saying that 'every kind of power' God has is available to him. That power I believe comes from the seven spirits of God.

Jesus shared this power and authority with us through the holy spirit - who has no name.
Jesus was a divine human being and like us - 100% man.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."

Hebrews 2:16-17.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

The word 'FIRSTBORN' implies Jesus was created and had a beginning. God the Father is the Supreme being and One True God. The Spirit of God is the power of God manifested by the Seven Spirits of God. There is a contra-distinction between the spirit of God and the holy spirit which was promised to believers as the advocate, enabler, and comforter. The holy spirit is an extra measure of the spirit of Jesus or of an angelic being.

It seems you're saying that because Jesus was worshipped, that makes him God.

Worship is when people want to show respect or honor to others. Lot worshipped the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He 'prostrated himself' before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1).
Moses worshipped his father-in-law, whom he respected and honored (Ex. 18:7).

The biblical record shows that when someone shows honor to another, they would fall down before another. The act of falling down is worship and shows respect and honor to the one being worshipped.
 
It doesn't imply that - it comes right out and says it. We know (maybe you don't) that God has all authority in heaven and earth. So if God, the Father of Jesus gives to Him the same authority that He has in heaven and on earth, He is telling us that His Son is God.

"That power comes from the seven spirits of God?" Now that is an off-the-wall interpretation with absolutely no Biblical basis whatsoever.

Yes, He was fully human and fully God.

There is no distinction between the spirit of God and the Holy Spirit in the Bible.

"The holy spirit is an extra measure of the spirit of Jesus OR OF AN ANGELIC BEING??" Totally false and bizarre.

It's one thing to not know what the Bible says - all who post here should have knowledge of what the scripture says - it's quite another thing to make up bizarre interpretations, with no scriptural backing.

Yes, men can and do bow to other men to show respect, but when they fall on their knees before someone and praise them, they have stepped over a line into idolatry. (Revelation 22:8-9) Some may even do that and think that it is okay, but it is idolatry. Remember God said that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus had several people fall on their knees before Him and worship Him and God at the same time, yet He NEVER rebuked them or told them to not do that. Why? Obviously because He was and is God.
 
I don't care for Mike Winger a whole lot. He's long winded. I did brows the video before and he's onto the JW - Mormon + demonization page just like the rest of them.
I shouldn't have said I don't like Winger. Winger is the better of the bunch on YouTube. He isn't nearly the dirt digger Justine Peters or John MacArthur is. I like him and he covers a lot of good stuff. I just don't like his long-windedness. He's not as bad as Justine Peters, the Wretched guy, and hundreds of others who too often talk bad about EVERYBODY in the faith.

We do some believe that it's incumbent upon them to 'inform' others about what's WRONG with others in 'other' faiths? There's been enough derogatory teachings on these groups over the last hundred or so years. Do we really need anymore?

Mike Winger isn't the up and up guy you think he is. He knows everything there is to know - about - everything there IS to know about except the things that would drive away subscribers. He won't disclose his 'rapture' beliefes. I say it's because his position is either post or pre-wrath and he doesn't want to turn off his viewers and lose subscribbers.

When he was asked about 'leviathan and behemoth' - he said he didn't know enough about them to comment. Why? He knows that high-profile teachers like MacArthur, Ham, and Hanegraaf, are literal 6-day creationist who believe Leviathan and Behemoth are dinosaurs. Again - he doesn't want to lose followers.
 
"The holy spirit is an extra measure of the spirit of Jesus OR OF AN ANGELIC BEING??" Totally false and bizarre.

Angels are one way God moves His holy spirit. Angels are often present when the Holy Spirit is present.

When Peter and others we sent to prison, it was an angel of the Lord who opened the prison doors. Afterwards, they were found teaching in the temple. Then they were brought before the council.

"Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, we ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
___________________________________________________________


But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Jesus needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God and ALSO the holy spirit, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?

Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Jesus didn't rebuke them for saying the thunderous voice came from an angel.

Angels are often present during the holy spirit's manifestation. That's all I'm saying.

And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
__________________________________________________________________________________
Put the word 'angel' in Strongs' search box and notice how many times an angel is present doing the work of the holy spirit esp. in the NT.

It's one thing to not know what the Bible says - all who post here should have knowledge of what the scripture says - it's quite another thing to make up bizarre interpretations, with no scriptural backing.
Is that how you prop up your beliefs?
 
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I shouldn't have said I don't like Winger. Winger is the better of the bunch on YouTube. He isn't nearly the dirt digger Justine Peters or John MacArthur is. I like him and he covers a lot of good stuff. I just don't like his long-windedness. He's not as bad as Justine Peters, the Wretched guy, and hundreds of others who too often talk bad about EVERYBODY in the faith.

We do some believe that it's incumbent upon them to 'inform' others about what's WRONG with others in 'other' faiths? There's been enough derogatory teachings on these groups over the last hundred or so years. Do we really need anymore?

Mike Winger isn't the up and up guy you think he is. He knows everything there is to know - about - everything there IS to know about except the things that would drive away subscribers. He won't disclose his 'rapture' beliefes. I say it's because his position is either post or pre-wrath and he doesn't want to turn off his viewers and lose subscribbers.

When he was asked about 'leviathan and behemoth' - he said he didn't know enough about them to comment. Why? He knows that high-profile teachers like MacArthur, Ham, and Hanegraaf, are literal 6-day creationist who believe Leviathan and Behemoth are dinosaurs. Again - he doesn't want to lose followers.
For me, personally-Mike is biblically sound and not afraid to say "no-I haven't studied your question-but will do so"
It is not about losing followers or subscribers.
We are all fallible and prone to make mistakes-not so?
Even our own theology may not be 100% correct at times.
Johann
 
For me, personally-Mike is biblically sound and not afraid to say "no-I haven't studied your question-but will do so"
It is not about losing followers or subscribers.
We are all fallible and prone to make mistakes-not so?
Even our own theology may not be 100% correct at times.
Johann
I know for a fact that he won't disclose those beliefs because he doesn't want to lose subscribers. Just think if he spoke out AGAINST PRE-TRIB when 75% of Christians are pre-trib! He is more biblically sound than most. He could cover most topics in 1/2 hour instead of 1-2 hours.
 
It doesn't imply that - it comes right out and says it. We know (maybe you don't) that God has all authority in heaven and earth. So if God, the Father of Jesus gives to Him the same authority that He has in heaven and on earth, He is telling us that His Son is God.
Jesus said he has available to him every type of power his Father has. He's NOT claiming to be the Father! Jesus is telling us that God holds the power and he has full access to it.
"That power comes from the seven spirits of God?" Now that is an off-the-wall interpretation with absolutely no Biblical basis whatsoever.
Well then - Explain to me who/what the Seven Spirits of God are! For some reason, the nameless 'HOLY SPIRIT is NOT found in or around the Throne of God - but the seven Spirits of God are - in fact, they surround the Throne!
Yes, He was fully human and fully God.
The bible does say Jesus was fully man - but never that he is fully God! I believe Jesus when he said the 'Father is greater'. The only way around that one for trinitarians is to distort the word greater and to pull the two natures clause.
There is no distinction between the spirit of God and the Holy Spirit in the Bible.
There isn't? I think you need to discover the truth on that - one your own.
"The holy spirit is an extra measure of the spirit of Jesus OR OF AN ANGELIC BEING??" Totally false and bizarre.
I should have worded that better. Angels are often present when the holy spirit's power is manifested. The spirit of Jesus and/or HIS holy spirit is often manifested through angels.
It's one thing to not know what the Bible says - all who post here should have knowledge of what the scripture says - it's quite another thing to make up bizarre interpretations, with no scriptural backing.
You have a monopoly on bible knowledge, do you?
Yes, men can and do bow to other men to show respect, but when they fall on their knees before someone and praise them, they have stepped over a line into idolatry.
Genesis 19:1 “And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself (Worshipped-- H7812 - šāḥâwith) his face toward the ground;”

Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down H7812 - šāḥâ before the people of the land, the Hittites.

Genesis 33:3
He himself [Jacob] went on ahead and bowed down H7812 - šāḥâ to the ground seven times as he approached his brother [Esau].

Genesis 42:6
Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down H7812 - šāḥâ to him with their faces to the ground.

Matthew 18:26
“The servant fell on his knees [proskuneo] before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’
(Revelation 22:8-9) Some may even do that and think that it is okay, but it is idolatry.
Context big guy! Look at the usage of the word before you fire from the hip. Not all worship outside of God is idolatry!
Remember God said that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus had several people fall on their knees before Him and worship Him and God at the same time, yet He NEVER rebuked them or told them to not do that. Why? Obviously because He was and is God.
It goes from prayer to worship. The typical Trinitarian misunderstanding and distortion of both. Jesus was prayed to - Jesus was worshipped - that makes him God!

Trinitarians will do anything to turn Jesus into the supreme god of the universe.
 
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The bible does say Jesus was fully man - but never that he is fully God! I believe Jesus when he said the 'Father is greater'. The only way around that one for trinitarians is to distort the word greater and to pull the two natures clause.
All the Fulness of Deity dwells in Him (permanently) as per Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9.

This is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT " from Colossians 1:19;2:9 concerning Christ being fully God lacking nothing in His Divinity while on this earth and His Ascension and also His humanity which remains permanent. The Incarnation was not temporal but Christ remains forever God in the flesh. All the fulness of Deity remains bodily.

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus. In Colossians 1:19 it is describing His earthly ministry and Colossians 2:9 it is describing His Post Resurrection/Ascension Glory as God Incarnate.

Colossians 1:19-20
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven
Colossians 2:9-10- For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 3:1- Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Paul is talking in Colossians chapters 2-3 about the glorified resurrected Christ now seated at the right hand of God not the earthly Christ pre resurrection. This is a slam dunk that He is in a human glorified resurrection body and that He continues to have all the fullness of Deity dwelling bodily in the present.

Now read the Greek below on the present ongoing meaning of DWELLS . The bodily dwelling of Deity is permanent not temporary. The Incarnation was PERMANENT.

κατοικεῖ (katoikei)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2730: To dwell in, settle in, be established in (permanently), inhabit. From kata and oikeo; to house permanently, i.e. Reside.


8.2 σωματικός, ή, όν; σωματικῶςa: (derivatives of σῶμαa ‘body,’ 8.1) pertaining to a physical body—‘bodily, physical, bodily form.’[1] Louw Nida


Expositor's Greek Testament
Colossians 2:9. in Him and in Him alone.—κατοικεῖ: “permanently dwells”. The reference is to the Exalted State, not only on account of the present, but of the context and Paul’s Christology generally.—πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος: “all the fulness of the Godhead”. πᾶν is emphatic, the whole fulness dwells in Christ.

“Dwelleth” is katoikei (κατοικει). Oikeō (Ὀικεω) means “to be at home.” Kata (Κατα), prefixed, means “down,” thus showing permanence. The compound verb was used of the permanent residents of a town as compared with the transient community. The verb is in the present tense, showing durative action. The translation reads: “Because in Him there is continuously and permanently at home all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily fashion.”


hope this helps !!!
 
All the Fulness of Deity dwells in Him (permanently) as per Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9.

This is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT " from Colossians 1:19;2:9 concerning Christ being fully God lacking nothing in His Divinity while on this earth and His Ascension and also His humanity which remains permanent. The Incarnation was not temporal but Christ remains forever God in the flesh. All the fulness of Deity remains bodily.

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus. In Colossians 1:19 it is describing His earthly ministry and Colossians 2:9 it is describing His Post Resurrection/Ascension Glory as God Incarnate.

Colossians 1:19-20
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven
Colossians 2:9-10- For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 3:1- Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Paul is talking in Colossians chapters 2-3 about the glorified resurrected Christ now seated at the right hand of God not the earthly Christ pre resurrection. This is a slam dunk that He is in a human glorified resurrection body and that He continues to have all the fullness of Deity dwelling bodily in the present.

Now read the Greek below on the present ongoing meaning of DWELLS . The bodily dwelling of Deity is permanent not temporary. The Incarnation was PERMANENT.

κατοικεῖ (katoikei)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2730: To dwell in, settle in, be established in (permanently), inhabit. From kata and oikeo; to house permanently, i.e. Reside.


8.2 σωματικός, ή, όν; σωματικῶςa: (derivatives of σῶμαa ‘body,’ 8.1) pertaining to a physical body—‘bodily, physical, bodily form.’[1] Louw Nida


Expositor's Greek Testament
Colossians 2:9. in Him and in Him alone.—κατοικεῖ: “permanently dwells”. The reference is to the Exalted State, not only on account of the present, but of the context and Paul’s Christology generally.—πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος: “all the fulness of the Godhead”. πᾶν is emphatic, the whole fulness dwells in Christ.

“Dwelleth” is katoikei (κατοικει). Oikeō (Ὀικεω) means “to be at home.” Kata (Κατα), prefixed, means “down,” thus showing permanence. The compound verb was used of the permanent residents of a town as compared with the transient community. The verb is in the present tense, showing durative action. The translation reads: “Because in Him there is continuously and permanently at home all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily fashion.”


hope this helps !!!
Absolutely correct brother.
J.
 
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